Paper Planes and Brain Drain: America's Medieval Immigration Lottery is Bleeding Talent
Every year, America educates the world's brightest minds—then kicks them out. Immigration attorney Melissa Harms exposes how our archaic H-1B visa system forces Silicon Valley companies to mail paper applications like it's 1925. With only 85,000 visas for hundreds of thousands of applicants, Stanford PhDs have the same 25% lottery odds as entry-level workers. Meanwhile, $44 billion in international student investment flees to countries that actually want global talent. This isn't immigration policy—it's economic sabotage.
Timestamps:
- (00:00) Introduction and Episode Overview
- (01:14) The Broken Immigration System: $44 Billion Brain Drain
- (01:50) Meet Melissa Harms: 25 Years Fighting Immigration Bureaucracy
- (02:41) Visa System Challenges: When CEOs Can't Get Visas
- (05:54) The H-1B Visa Dilemma: Medieval Lottery for Modern Talent
- (11:17) Student Visas and the Lottery System: 9 Tries, No Success
📢 Solving America’s Problems Podcast – Real Solutions For Real Issues
Transcript
The people want to know Conley.
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:What are we talking about today?
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:Dave Conley: In this week's episode of
Solving America's Problems, we examine
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:the outdated structures crippling our
immigration system, where businesses and
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:universities invest billions, training
and educating cutting edge global talent
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:only to face an immigration system so old
it forces Silicon Valley to mail paper
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:applications like its 1925, not 2025.
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:At the heart of these issues are
politicians unable or unwilling to
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:change laws in 40 years, companies
desperately trying to hire Stanford PhD,
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:curing cancer have the same 25% chance
as anyone else, and your best sales
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:person from Canada, or entrepreneur from
Europe, starting the next great company.
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:Have no chance at all.
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:Our guest, Melissa Harms brings 25
years of experience as an attorney on
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:the front lines of immigration law.
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:She helps fortune five hundreds,
startups, universities, and biotech
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:labs navigate the broken bureaucracy
and inefficient government systems
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:driving America's innovation overseas.
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:She's taught immigration courses at Cal
State and the University of California,
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:and speaks nationally for the American
Immigration Lawyers Association on
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:navigating visa challenges to retain
top talent and drive economic growth.
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:And that's this week on solving America's
problems, paper planes, and brain drain.
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:America's talent crisis
with Melissa harms.
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:Jerremy Newsome: Every year, America
educates the world's brightest minds.
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:Then we kick them out.
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:International students pump 44 billion
into our economy, but we hand them
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:diplomas with deportation notices.
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:Meanwhile, companies from Silicon
Valley to Main Street follow every rule,
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:pay every fee, but still can't fill
all the jobs they desperately need.
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:What's the result?
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:Cities from Beijing to Berlin are thinking
us for the best talent in the world.
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:I'm Jerremy Alexander Newsom with
my co-host Dave Conley, and this
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:is solving America's Problems.
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:Today we have Melissa Harms 25 years as an
immigration attorney on the front lines.
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:the one CEOs call when the Visa
system threatens their best people
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:Silicon Valley to University Labs.
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:She knows exactly where this
thing is broken, and we're
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:gonna be discussing that.
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:Melissa, welcome to the show.
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:Melissa Harms: Thanks, Jerremy.
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:I'm not sure I can say
exactly where it's broken.
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:It's broken in many places.
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:I don't have, if I had the recipe to
fix this, I'd be making a lot more money
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:than I am right now, that's for sure.
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:Jerremy Newsome: You at least know
all the things that are broken, or
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:Melissa Harms: I can, yes,
I can tell you it's broken.
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:Maybe not how to fix it.
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:Jerremy Newsome: That's okay.
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:That, the good news is we're
gonna have a conversation.
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:We get to use your ideas and your
thoughts and your beliefs, and
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:Dave's whimsical concepts of how
to change and make adaptations.
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:That's why we're here.
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:Lemme throw this at you, 25 years
Melissa, helping businesses and
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:universities navigate immigration.
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:Did you know in law school that you wanted
to do employment and immigration law?
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:Melissa Harms: Yes and no.
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:I did initially start out in employment
law really thinking I wanted to
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:get into employment discrimination.
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:I've always been interested
in women's issues.
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:I was a public policy major in college
but not so much immigration, although I
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:loved travel and international cultures.
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:I hadn't really been thought about
immigration and quite honestly fell
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:into it after doing the big firm
route for a little while and realizing
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:that's not where my heart was.
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:Really wanting to pursue a
field of law where I felt like
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:I could enact social change.
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:While also using my analytical
skills and law degree.
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:And so that's how I sort of happenstance
into immigration a few years
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:after graduation from law school.
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:Jerremy Newsome: And just as like a brief.
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:I dunno, maybe this might be more for me.
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:the heck is immigration law?
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:What are you doing?
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:Are you changing the policies?
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:Are you working with individuals?
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:Melissa Harms: That's
a really good question.
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:We have a fair share of policy.
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:Like we like to call them policy
walks that are working for the
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:national, on the national level.
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:Doing lobbying and telling, coming
up with what the fair systems are.
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:We have a national group called American
Immigration Lawyers Association, which
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:is about 15,000 immigration lawyers
nationwide and they're really in
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:charge of doing a lot of the lobbying
work disseminating information.
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:I've been involved with
them on many levels.
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:Recently working with them on technology.
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:And we worked with USAS on technology
for immigration which was great, but
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:ultimately after the administration
change led to a whole lot of nothing,
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:which is a theme that we might
continue throughout our conversation.
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:But in the actual practice of immigration
law, we really have two different sectors.
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:We have those who help with deportation
removal, so those are the people who
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:are on the front lines of the border who
are working with undocumented workers.
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:Trying to figure out some sort of
relief for them once they're in that
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:pod of being unauthorized coming here
illegally or falling out of status.
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:And then we also have the other pot
of immigration lawyers, which are
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:the business immigration attorneys.
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:And that's where I fall.
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:We're the ones that work with corporations
and companies and universities to
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:obtain visas for people who are here
now legally, or maybe people who are
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:outside the US who we wanna bring over.
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:But we generally don't touch the
pool of, that's almost like a whole
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:nother field of law working in
the deportation aspect of things.
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:Jerremy Newsome: But still really
fascinating because after, don't
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:know, probably 12 conversations on
this topic, it would also seem that
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:I think the majority of listeners,
the majority of participants, they
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:feel like the biggest immigration,
at least the largest challenge.
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:And from a number standpoint,
it is, like you mentioned, the
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:undocumented, the asylum seekers.
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:But what you're mentioning is have
the individuals who are working,
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:who wanna work in a different
country, global corporations.
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:And you would think that would be a
relatively straightforward process.
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:what it sounds like is
that's not the case at all.
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:So when CEO or university presidents
come to you, what's their top
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:frustrations about bringing
international talent to America?
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:Melissa Harms: I think when you
look at the corporation side,
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:they're frustrated because they
can't get the workers they need.
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:And our immigration system for
visas is incredibly archaic.
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:The most common visa we have is
the H one B visa, and I think most
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:people have heard of that now.
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:There's been a lot of press about that.
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:But the H one B status.
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:It's only for people who have a bachelor's
degree in a certain field, and the
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:job requires a degree in that field.
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:And over the years, without any sort
of legislation or rulemaking U-S-C-I-S
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:has narrowed that definition to be
only, it only really benefits those
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:who have, let's say, a chemistry
degree and they're gonna be a chemist.
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:But in the business world in fact, they
came out with a proposed rule a few years
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:ago that says we don't consider business
degrees to be specialized degrees.
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:So if you're looking at,
you come out and you are.
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:You started a company and you're A CEO,
they'll say you don't qualify for H
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:one B because you could have a number
of different degrees to be A CEO.
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:You could have a degree in English,
you could have a degree in marketing,
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:you could have a degree in finance.
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:So they're really looking for the
hard science, the analytical fields
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:to be eligible for H one B status.
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:And that's all we've got.
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:Unless you're from another country,
we have very specific narrow visa
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:categories for those from Australia,
Mexico Chile, Singapore, and Canada.
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:But other than that's it.
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:We can bring people over if
they've been employed abroad.
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:But we don't have a catchall for
just the very smart person who's
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:starting a company, quite frankly.
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:So there's a giant hole in
the Visa framework for, what
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:we see in today's economy.
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:And the, we started out talking about how.
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:Immigration is late 1946, and
it really is, we haven't had a
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:substantive change to our business
immigration framework in many years.
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:Dave Conley: H one B visas our research is
saying it's about, it's only about 85,000
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:people a year that that qualify for that.
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:And what would you say to folks that,
that are thinking that somehow this
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:depresses American jobs like Microsoft
just fired 9,000 people, and yet they're
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:also asking for a record number of visas.
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:Now, personally, I don't think
those two things are like that.
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:The pie isn't, finite like that.
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:But what do you say to people who think
that this is something that actually hurts
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:Americans rather than helps everyone?
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:Melissa Harms: I think if you
believe in capitalism, the
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:markets correct themselves.
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:So what I will tell you is that an
HOV Visa can cost as much as $3,400.
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:In just filing fees.
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:And on top of that, if you wanna
have an answer in three weeks, as
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:opposed to six months, you have to
pay $2,500 more to the government.
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:So you're looking at 6,000 in
government fees before you pay my fees.
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:So companies don't wanna do
this unless they have to.
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:So I have a lot of companies, and
I'm on retainer with companies.
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:That's how we generally work.
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:They'll say, when we need a
Visa, we're gonna call you.
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:And I have a lot of 'em that
say, you know what, we're not
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:gonna do any H one B sponsorship.
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:We're just, we're, we
feel like we're just.
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:Gonna save those costs
and hire American workers.
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:And I say, great.
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:And then I get a call the next week
we've had this job open for, 10 months.
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:Nobody's applied, or the people
who have applied have just been way
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:underqualified and we need a visa.
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:So the cost of doing these H one visas
is a, impediment to, no company's
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:gonna do this unless they have to.
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:So you will see them laying off
workers, but they're generally
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:not gonna be laying off workers in
categories that are hard to fill.
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:So they are still hiring H one B workers
when they can't find anybody else.
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:And I think if you look at the way
the markets set, the demand is out
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:there and immigration fluctuates.
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:We have a lottery each year for people
who are getting their first H one B,
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:and we do this whole archaic thing
where we sent in these petitions to
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:U-S-C-I-S to be counted in the lottery.
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:And the petitions were,
three inches thick.
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:They cost me about $50 to FedEx.
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:And we had to send in the entire
prepared petition, and then they would
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:run a lottery and send back the ones
that they didn't choose at the expense.
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:And I always looked at this of $10 per
application they sent back in postage.
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:So this archaic way, finally,
we had an electronic system only
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:within the last five years where we
now do this electronically first.
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:We've been looking at the
numbers and what we've seen as.
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:As the economy gets worse and there's
not as many jobs open, there are less
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:applications for H one B numbers.
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:So we see it fluctuate based
on the way the economy runs.
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:We used to, under Clinton, the
numbers went up, so now we have,
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:you're right about 85,000 total.
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:Under Clinton, it was raised
to about a hundred and let's
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:see, 195,000 at one point.
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:And back then we didn't use them all.
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:We never used them all.
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:Now, in today's economy this past year
we had, let's see, 358,000 registrations.
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:And they selected of that,
they selected 120,000.
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:Now, this was down from last
year when we had 480,000.
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:So you see the economy works in
seeing how many of these are selected.
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:And I do have clients that will
put somebody in a lottery and
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:then they're chosen on the lottery
and they're really excited.
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:And then the company
will say, you know what?
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:Hard times we don't have that job anymore.
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:We're not actually gonna file the
petition for that selected person.
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:We do see that happen when the
company feels like there's not a
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:need for that position anymore.
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:Dave Conley: In previous episodes I've
talked about how medieval this system is.
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:Can you walk me through sort of the
experience of, a student and they wanna
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:stay in the United States and I know,
in our research there's something like
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:the OTP and you get to stay here for a
little bit, but then you like take your
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:chances versus somebody who's overseas
wants to come to the United States.
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:Or is there like yet another category?
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:What are the different things that people
try in order to either hire in the United
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:States or stay in the United States?
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:Melissa Harms: So what we see is there's
really three, again, I'll use buckets
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:that these H one B applicants come from.
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:Majority.
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:I would say, and this is totally
off the top of my head with my
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:cases, 80% of those are students
who graduated from a US school.
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:So these are people who come in
on a student visa, an F1 when
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:they graduate from a US school.
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:They get one year of OPT as you said.
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:If they have a degree in a STEM field,
which is designated by their school,
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:they can get an additional two years.
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:So they get three years total to work in a
STEM field without the employer having to
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:spend money sponsor them, sponsoring them.
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:So during that time I tell employers,
if you wanna keep this person, you
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:should put them in the lottery the
first year that they are eligible.
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:Because about every year, and this
is a really rough estimate, you have
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:about a 25% chance of selection.
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:So with three years, you're not
guaranteed to get an H one B number.
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:So you need to try every year.
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:I have one individual who has
been through the lottery nine
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:times, never been selected.
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:So there are those outliers.
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:So that's the, these are the
students and those are, that's
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:probably the biggest bucket of who's
applying for these H one B visas.
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:The people outside the US are, those
are not, they're not that many of
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:them because they need to have the
exposure to the US employers to have
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:the US employer feel like, Hey, I
really wanna bring this person over.
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:I really wanna spend this, five to
$10,000 trying to hire this person.
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:There's not a lot like that.
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:We might have some who came here for a
little while, worked for us, employer went
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:back, and now they're trying to come back.
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:That might be one of or somebody
who works for an overseas
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:subsidiary and wants to come here.
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:Then the third bucket is people
who are here in some their
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:status who wanna move to H one B.
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:A lot of times that will be somebody
who's here on what we call an L one, and
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:that's an intercompany transferee where
you work abroad for the company for a
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:year, and then you can come here on an L.
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:The L is great in many ways,
but the H is better for
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:long-term green card processing.
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:So some of those people are switching.
260
:We had people switching out of the tn,
which was for Mexicans and Canadians
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:because of fear of what Trump was
gonna do with the TN visa category.
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:So there's always, we always have
fear-based switching h fours, sometimes
263
:it's a dependent of an HMBV holder.
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:They might say, I got a job and
now I wanna move into H one B.
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:'cause most of the time they cannot work.
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:They get to a certain point in the
Green card process for the spouse
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:that they can get a work permit.
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:But most of the time these spouses
of these H one B workers cannot work.
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:And that's difficult, especially in the
Bay Area, to have a single income family.
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:So they're trying to
get their own H one B.
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:So those are the types of people who
would be applying for this H one B status.
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:Jerremy Newsome: So
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:Melissa Harms: It's a lot.
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:I know.
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:I get too technical so feel
free to tell me to dumb it down.
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:Dave Conley: This is perfect because, in
order to really, we have to define these
277
:problems, and if people's eyes are glazing
over right now, that's a good thing.
278
:Because should be simple.
279
:That's the first thing.
280
:I don't know, in one of our episodes,
it's like somebody took the worst of the
281
:tax code, drank themselves into oblivion
and said, immigrate to the United States,
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:Melissa Harms: I tell people that
clients, especially when I meet with
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:new companies, I say, you really
should not need me, but you do.
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:Our system is probably
the most complicated and
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:archaic in the entire world.
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:And quite frankly, doesn't serve
the American population well some
287
:of these policies I look at and
what was the policy behind this
288
:and who were they trying to help?
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:Because it really doesn't help.
290
:Another thing that people might not
realize about the H one B system
291
:is that the employers have to say
they're paying the hire of the
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:prevailing wage and the actual wage.
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:For that position, in that location.
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:So the reason they do that is they
say, we wanna protect US workers.
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:We don't want companies to come in,
fire all their US workers and hire
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:H one B workers and underpay them.
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:Great intent.
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:I see where that's going.
299
:But the way it plays out in a lot of my
cases, I can't even tell you how many, is
300
:that our prevailing wage is set by the,
we use this government database for wages.
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:And I don't know where they
are getting their data.
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:They don't even cite it.
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:But it's incredibly high.
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:So what happens is somebody will call me
and say, I wanna hire a software engineer.
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:In Silicon Valley, and I'll say, great,
the prevailing wage for that is 240,000.
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:And they say, there's no way I'm
gonna pay that person 240,000.
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:I say that's the prevailing wage.
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:And so they'll either A, not hire
them, or B, they'll hire them and
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:pay them like twice as much as
they're paying their US workers.
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:In effect, it doesn't do what it's
supposed to do, put it that way.
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:I think if we had a workable wage
database that was actually accurate
312
:it does have a good intent behind
it, but it just doesn't work.
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:Alex: The lottery's treating
cancer researchers like entry-level
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:workers—25% odds for everyone.
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:But that $44 billion we discussed?
316
:Wait till you see where it goes.
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:Next up: the real costs hitting employers
and families caught in this broken system.