Episode 145

full
Published on:

20th Dec 2025

Make Prosecutors Pay When They Lose Cases (Full)

Right now the government only pays your attorney fees if you beat a murder charge in self-defense with a gun. Everywhere else? You’re broke even when innocent. Former prosecutor and judge Alex Thomason says make the state pay fees on every loss—watch prosecutorial abuse collapse overnight. Jerremy Alexander Newsome and Dave Conley grill him on unchecked power, trash law-school training, plea coercion, and the human wreckage left behind. This one change could gut the 97 % plea machine and actually restore justice.

Timestamps:

  • (00:00) The one crime where the state pays your lawyer if they lose
  • (02:04) Meet Alex Thomason – prosecutor, judge, Apprentice final-four, apple farmer
  • (03:18) Law school fails – why grads can’t try cases
  • (06:00) Storytelling wins trials, not motions
  • (12:17) Prosecutors hold all the power – and almost never face consequences
  • (20:12) Plea deal coercion – how 97 % of cases die without a fight
  • (31:00) Systemic rot and real reform ideas
  • (35:35) Human cost of wrongful convictions
  • (41:14) Why jury trials are vanishing
  • (46:40) A real malicious prosecution horror story
  • (50:24) Make the state pay attorney fees on every loss – game over for bad cases
  • (59:02) Lightning round with Alex

Connect:

Transcript
Alex:

Solving America’s Problems drops in with Jerremy and Dave grilling former

Alex:

prosecutor turned judge Alex Thomason — and here’s the bomb he just casually

detonates:

right now the ONLY crime in America where the state has to pay your

detonates:

attorney fees if they lose and you’re found not guilty… is when you shoot

detonates:

someone in self-defense with a gun.

detonates:

That’s it.

detonates:

Guns get the magic fee-shifting rule.

detonates:

Every other charge — rape, murder, DUI, robbery, child porn, whatever — the

detonates:

government can swing and miss, wreck your life, and walk away whistling while

detonates:

you eat six figures in legal bills.

detonates:

Alex says make the state pay every single time they bring a case and lose.

detonates:

One statute.

detonates:

One line of code per state.

detonates:

Suddenly prosecutors stop filing 50% of the garbage they currently stack

detonates:

on people just to force pleas... And the prison doors fly open.

detonates:

Jerremy and Dave stare into that abyss with him…

Jerremy Newsome:

Dave Conley, what are we addressing and solving today?

Dave Conley:

In this week's episode of Solving America's Problems, we're probing

Dave Conley:

the justice system where prosecutors power, often overshadows truth,

Dave Conley:

overcrowding, prisons, and fraying trust.

Dave Conley:

Good one, simple rule, fix it.

Dave Conley:

Our guest, Alex Thomason, a judge, former prosecutor and Valor Law Group

Dave Conley:

founder, exposes law school failures, prosecutors', truth twisting game, and one

Dave Conley:

simple rule already used in gun defense cases that could transform everything.

Dave Conley:

And that's this week one rule to right justice with Alex Thomason.

Jerremy Newsome:

The justice system is meant to protect, but with 1.9

Jerremy Newsome:

million Americans incarcerated and $80 billion spent, are we safer?

Jerremy Newsome:

From prosecutors calling the shots to juries lost in details.

Jerremy Newsome:

It's a system that punishes families and does not reform lives.

Jerremy Newsome:

I'm Jeremy Alexander Newsom, joined by my co-host Dave Conley, and

Jerremy Newsome:

this is Solving America's Problems.

Jerremy Newsome:

Today we are digging in with my guy Alex Thomason, a lawyer who's lived it all.

Jerremy Newsome:

Literally apple farmer, world ranked skier, apprentice, finalist,

Jerremy Newsome:

and prosecutor who has fought corporate crooks, courtroom

Jerremy Newsome:

failures, and so much more.

Jerremy Newsome:

He is here to help us fix what's broken.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex, welcome to the show.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Hey, thanks for having me, guys.

Jerremy Newsome:

I appreciate that.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah, it's gonna be awesome, man.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: this is such an interesting topic, so I'm glad

Jerremy Newsome:

you guys were able to pat me on.

Jerremy Newsome:

I'm happy to be here.

Jerremy Newsome:

I also am the world's smallest and least influential judge, so you know.

Dave Conley:

It.

Dave Conley:

Smallest towel.

Dave Conley:

I, you gotta be, unpack that

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah.

Dave Conley:

What,

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: so the.

Dave Conley:

do they come in

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah.

Dave Conley:

They come with different powers.

Dave Conley:

If you imagine the Avengers, and each Avenger has their power.

Dave Conley:

I'm thinking, I'm the guy that does the laundry there for their

Dave Conley:

costumes, so they don't shrink.

Dave Conley:

So a miss, a municipal judge, so I handle stuff for cities.

Dave Conley:

So

Jerremy Newsome:

Love it, man.

Jerremy Newsome:

Thank you.

Jerremy Newsome:

Thank you for being here.

Jerremy Newsome:

Thank you for giving us your time.

Jerremy Newsome:

That's awesome.

Jerremy Newsome:

I'm gonna start at a random little spot.

Jerremy Newsome:

What did law school teach you about how justice is supposed to work

Jerremy Newsome:

and then what's the reality when you're actually practicing it?

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: not a thing.

Jerremy Newsome:

a thing.

Jerremy Newsome:

Law school teaches you how to be a great librarian.

Jerremy Newsome:

only thing law school teaches you is how do you issue spot.

Jerremy Newsome:

I. So somebody says, they tell you a story and, Hey, I was driving the car.

Jerremy Newsome:

I failed down here.

Jerremy Newsome:

This happened, I was arrested.

Jerremy Newsome:

That happened to issue spot and say, what are the potential legal,

Jerremy Newsome:

either civil causes of action you could have, or criminal causes of

Jerremy Newsome:

action that could come against you?

Jerremy Newsome:

So what you learn in law school is how to look at a set of facts and figure out

Jerremy Newsome:

what areas of law and what elements of law would apply to that particular case.

Jerremy Newsome:

But you learn nothing about being a lawyer.

Jerremy Newsome:

Nothing.

Jerremy Newsome:

That's so wild, man.

Jerremy Newsome:

The

Dave Conley:

God.

Dave Conley:

Ugh.

Jerremy Newsome:

I start off with that question really is

Jerremy Newsome:

everyone in the show knows this.

Jerremy Newsome:

I know you know this as well, but like my whole goal in life.

Jerremy Newsome:

Is to not only run and win presidency of the United States of America, but also to

Jerremy Newsome:

reform the educational system of America.

Jerremy Newsome:

And this seems like a glaring problem, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

Another in incredible profession that we need, that's a must that's

Jerremy Newsome:

required, where the education system is like, ah, we're probably okay

Jerremy Newsome:

with like mediocre information.

Jerremy Newsome:

We should be fine.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: What's curious about, so have these educational systems

Jerremy Newsome:

that have been in place for, let's say they're 150 years whereby you go

Jerremy Newsome:

through a gauntlet of tests and at the end you walk out with a piece of

Jerremy Newsome:

paper like Wizard of Oz, the Tin Man.

Jerremy Newsome:

Now all of a sudden he's got a heart and the other guy's got a brain.

Jerremy Newsome:

The whole thing that, that's what's happened with law school where you go and

Jerremy Newsome:

you learn certain things that are not, and have nothing to do with being a lawyer.

Jerremy Newsome:

Being a lawyer is writing briefs.

Jerremy Newsome:

It's dealing learning how do you sell to a judge?

Jerremy Newsome:

How do you sell to a jury?

Jerremy Newsome:

How do you sell to a prosecutor?

Jerremy Newsome:

That's what law school should be about.

Jerremy Newsome:

It should be a class on marketing and acting, I would think.

Jerremy Newsome:

You are muted there.

Jerremy Newsome:

Weird.

Jerremy Newsome:

Sorry.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yes.

Jerremy Newsome:

Thank you, Alex.

Jerremy Newsome:

That's so you should take improv classes, is what you're saying.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah, think about, so with law school, you start

Jerremy Newsome:

out with contracts 1 0 1, okay?

Jerremy Newsome:

What is an offer?

Jerremy Newsome:

What's acceptance?

Jerremy Newsome:

What's consideration?

Jerremy Newsome:

Now you have a binding contract.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay how do you get outta that contract?

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay?

Jerremy Newsome:

Those are all helpful things.

Jerremy Newsome:

But now with the advent of Google ai, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

No one's gonna Google anymore.

Jerremy Newsome:

You're gonna just do chat, GBT or Grok four, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

And so you're gonna, you're gonna find out those elements of a contract anyway.

Jerremy Newsome:

once you know the facts well, how do you tell the story?

Jerremy Newsome:

That's what the practice of law is.

Jerremy Newsome:

And that's why so many people go to jail.

Jerremy Newsome:

Why so many people win cases that they should lose and lose cases they should

Jerremy Newsome:

win is because they suck at storytelling.

Jerremy Newsome:

Dang, dude.

Jerremy Newsome:

So here's what resonated with when you said that.

Jerremy Newsome:

Like they should have won, but they lost.

Jerremy Newsome:

Like this is a winnable case.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Should have been a slam dunk, but they just

Jerremy Newsome:

suck at what they're doing.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: some, yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Something example, everyone knows about pop culture, case, the man

Jerremy Newsome:

should have been convicted of murder, but because the prosecutors were

Jerremy Newsome:

not as effective at answering the story of this ridiculous, that the

Jerremy Newsome:

glove doesn't fit, you must acquit.

Jerremy Newsome:

The civil lawyer, so the criminal side, they lost.

Jerremy Newsome:

The civil lawyers were good and they knew how to tell a story and

Jerremy Newsome:

so therefore he was found liable.

Jerremy Newsome:

I. He was found liable.

Jerremy Newsome:

That's similar to Trump being found liable for sexual assault charges,

Jerremy Newsome:

but not liable under criminal charges, even though they weren't pled.

Jerremy Newsome:

So basically there's two different tracks you could go under, but the effectiveness

Jerremy Newsome:

of the lawyers is what determined that case, not the veracity of the arguments.

Jerremy Newsome:

The arguments and the facts were the same.

Jerremy Newsome:

The outcome was the opposite.

Jerremy Newsome:

The question is why?

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah, that, that's fascinating.

Jerremy Newsome:

So you mentioned like the you mentioned a few different words there.

Jerremy Newsome:

So I'm gonna ask you not explain it necessarily, but is there a difference

Jerremy Newsome:

between law school students that choose to go into public service or

Jerremy Newsome:

becoming district attorneys or into criminal defense or other specialties?

Jerremy Newsome:

You mentioned the word civil.

Jerremy Newsome:

Can you kinda walk us through all that?

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: yeah, sure.

Jerremy Newsome:

So there's this strange kind of cloud that comes over every first year law

Jerremy Newsome:

student, and it's all of a sudden it's the desire of, oh my God, I need money.

Jerremy Newsome:

And everyone wants to now become a corporate lawyer.

Jerremy Newsome:

Nobody begins.

Jerremy Newsome:

Nobody begins that they want to grow and be a corporate lawyer, but the

Jerremy Newsome:

second you're a first year student, you realize, oh my God, I need this job.

Jerremy Newsome:

Now there are a few students that say, no, I'm gonna start out as a prosecutor.

Jerremy Newsome:

I'm gonna do defense, I'm gonna do that.

Jerremy Newsome:

And then they do that.

Jerremy Newsome:

But the most time everyone says they're not really sure what they're

Jerremy Newsome:

going to do, and the end of the first year, then they all begin to fight

Jerremy Newsome:

for the same type of corporate job.

Jerremy Newsome:

'cause they want the most amount of money.

Jerremy Newsome:

So by the time you graduate law school a lot of people are already in a, an

Jerremy Newsome:

early path to start out as a prosecutor, which is what I did, I worked for

Jerremy Newsome:

the King County Prosecutor's Office.

Jerremy Newsome:

And the benefit of that is, hey, you learn how to try cases.

Jerremy Newsome:

Is this something I wanted to do?

Jerremy Newsome:

I didn't even know, I didn't know what law was.

Jerremy Newsome:

I'd been through law school for three years.

Jerremy Newsome:

I had no idea what it was, and it wasn't until you actually get in

Jerremy Newsome:

the trenches that you understand what is the criminal code.

Jerremy Newsome:

the civil side of things are, you think of suits, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

The movies the docuseries suits, it's fighting over contracts and breaches

Jerremy Newsome:

and all that sort of stuff, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

And defamation and sex cases.

Jerremy Newsome:

Those are civil cases, arguing about money, criminal cases.

Jerremy Newsome:

If you lose, you go to jail.

Jerremy Newsome:

If you win, you get out.

Jerremy Newsome:

Fascinating.

Jerremy Newsome:

Fascinating, man.

Jerremy Newsome:

That is wild.

Jerremy Newsome:

Talking about that then, you've been called a non-conventional lawyer.

Jerremy Newsome:

What does that mean in your practice and how does it show up in court?

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Here's what a conventional lawyer will do.

Jerremy Newsome:

Let's talk about a criminal case, your average DUI case.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay?

Jerremy Newsome:

So by the way, half a Congress has got DUI and as a side note, there's two kinds

Jerremy Newsome:

of people when they come into my office when they have a DUI the first kind

Jerremy Newsome:

are the ones that are, so embarrassed.

Jerremy Newsome:

They like, they, the door slowly opens and they walk in the office for their meeting

Jerremy Newsome:

and their head is bowed in shame and they are bereft of like their, of everything.

Jerremy Newsome:

They thought that they should be like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm doing this.

Jerremy Newsome:

Those people are the people that you say listen.

Jerremy Newsome:

This isn't a big deal, okay?

Jerremy Newsome:

You gotta calm down.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay, half of Congress got a DUI.

Jerremy Newsome:

What are you gonna run for Senate now?

Jerremy Newsome:

Is that your next?

Jerremy Newsome:

And you gotta kinda cheer them up to be like, look, this is not the in the world.

Jerremy Newsome:

Thank you for recognizing this.

Jerremy Newsome:

There.

Jerremy Newsome:

And then there are a second group of people.

Jerremy Newsome:

That are like this stupid cop that and this and so that and in very rare

Jerremy Newsome:

circumstances are those people innocent.

Jerremy Newsome:

And those are the people that I say, listen bro, you're

Jerremy Newsome:

driving out here in the road.

Jerremy Newsome:

We got kids out here.

Jerremy Newsome:

I don't care what you were doing.

Jerremy Newsome:

You were you blew a 0.12, you were not okay.

Jerremy Newsome:

You're not just fine.

Jerremy Newsome:

You gotta take some responsibility.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so I handle those cases different than I would than I would in each case.

Jerremy Newsome:

So an unconventional lawyer would, our conventional lawyer would be like,

Jerremy Newsome:

okay, we're here to, you're a hammer.

Jerremy Newsome:

Or You're the nail.

Jerremy Newsome:

I'm the hammer.

Jerremy Newsome:

I'm gonna go forward and hammer your case.

Jerremy Newsome:

I look at each case depends on who is the client, what does the client need?

Jerremy Newsome:

sometimes your client may have the same problem, DUI, contract,

Jerremy Newsome:

con construction dispute.

Jerremy Newsome:

They may have the same problem, but because of who they are,

Jerremy Newsome:

they need a different solution.

Jerremy Newsome:

Because what?

Jerremy Newsome:

Say the guy who's upset about thinking that he gets pulled over for nothing.

Jerremy Newsome:

That person, thinks that they're there for that particular DUI, but

Jerremy Newsome:

they're really not there for that.

Jerremy Newsome:

They're there because they have a greater problem in the substrate of their life.

Jerremy Newsome:

They're just causing them to do this.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so part of my problem solving as their lawyer, even though they

Jerremy Newsome:

didn't ask for it, is to help them with those other areas of their life

Jerremy Newsome:

so they're not in my office again.

Jerremy Newsome:

So the goal is to get to the same goal, which is don't get arrested again for DUI.

Jerremy Newsome:

But the process that you walk someone down the path depends on why are

Jerremy Newsome:

they here and what's their attitude.

Jerremy Newsome:

Man, that's very informative for me.

Jerremy Newsome:

Thank you.

Jerremy Newsome:

And I love that you're using real life examples, especially as a DUI.

Jerremy Newsome:

So Dave and myself, one of the reasons that we're creating this exact topic is

Jerremy Newsome:

because we were in a women's correctional facility in California about a month ago.

Jerremy Newsome:

And we were in a prison and many women in that prison, I would say 10 to

Jerremy Newsome:

20% were in there for violent DUIs.

Jerremy Newsome:

That or something that happened while they were under the influence

Jerremy Newsome:

that was extremely negligent.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so we're talking about this prison reform and this incarceration nation

Jerremy Newsome:

that just seems to be happening so often.

Jerremy Newsome:

But it also sounds again, to your point, you are and have

Jerremy Newsome:

been in the past, a prosecutor

Jerremy Newsome:

You actually said in a text message voice memo that prosecutors can

Jerremy Newsome:

be oftentimes the biggest problem.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

let me ask you this question.

Jerremy Newsome:

What kind of power does a prosecutor hold and where is it going off track?

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Okay, let's, so let's say what everyone knows.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: knows that cops can pull out guns, come into

Jerremy Newsome:

your home and strip you from the bed in the middle of the night, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

You've heard all these horror stories, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

Likewise, cops are the ones that show up to save your child who's been

Jerremy Newsome:

stolen in somebody else's kidnapper's bed in the middle of the night, okay?

Jerremy Newsome:

The power of the police is to arrest, and then they write reports.

Jerremy Newsome:

That's the end of their story.

Jerremy Newsome:

The, they then take those documents.

Jerremy Newsome:

They physically either email or walk them over to the prosecutor's office to

Jerremy Newsome:

decide has there been a violation of law?

Jerremy Newsome:

cops don't charge.

Jerremy Newsome:

Prosecutors do.

Jerremy Newsome:

So there is, in most of these DA's office offices, there are

Jerremy Newsome:

departments that are filing deputies.

Jerremy Newsome:

Those are deputy prosecutors that get the story from the cop.

Jerremy Newsome:

Jeremy Newsom was running down drunk and he he shouted at a

Jerremy Newsome:

woman and called her profanities.

Jerremy Newsome:

And then the man across the street turned around and then shot Jeremy.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay?

Jerremy Newsome:

So then I get the d Jeremy was alive, then Jeremy, when he is on the ground,

Jerremy Newsome:

pulled out a gun and shot the man back.

Jerremy Newsome:

Now the cops have arrested Jeremy.

Jerremy Newsome:

For aggravated assault, they've also charged Jeremy with disorderly conduct.

Jerremy Newsome:

And the basis, what the cop has said is, look, the initial ag the, in the

Jerremy Newsome:

initial aggressor was Jeremy, because Jeremy said there's disorderly conduct.

Jerremy Newsome:

He said words that were likely to cause of public disturbance, and so therefore

Jerremy Newsome:

it did, which caused the man to shoot him.

Jerremy Newsome:

And Jeremy therefore couldn't charge self-defense to shoot the other guy back.

Jerremy Newsome:

that's the story that the cop gives.

Jerremy Newsome:

They wanna choose that.

Jerremy Newsome:

They wanna shoot Jeremy, the filing deputy will say, hold on

Jerremy Newsome:

a second, let's make sure we got the who's and the what's right.

Jerremy Newsome:

So they'll look to see whether or not does the claim during the words you said,

Jerremy Newsome:

were those sufficient to warrant a charge against you for public disturbance.

Jerremy Newsome:

D disorderly conduct.

Jerremy Newsome:

in very rare circumstances the answer is no.

Jerremy Newsome:

Like just because you say something doesn't give somebody the right to

Jerremy Newsome:

shoot you, you could say a racial slur doesn't give them the right to shoot you.

Jerremy Newsome:

But oftentimes what happens is when these assault cases, is it

Jerremy Newsome:

what leads up to it that decides if you can argue self-defense or not.

Jerremy Newsome:

So the prosecutor would say, okay, step number one and say, okay, that's

Jerremy Newsome:

disorderly conduct for him to call her all these kind of, these names, but it

Jerremy Newsome:

doesn't give rise to level where the person across the street, the boyfriend,

Jerremy Newsome:

had a reasonable apprehension of immediate fear and bodily injury that

Jerremy Newsome:

the woman was about to be suffered.

Jerremy Newsome:

So the words I'm using are all elements of a particular crime to

Jerremy Newsome:

assert the claim of self-defense.

Jerremy Newsome:

The prosecutor is going through, okay, we've got Jeremy's words, number one.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay that's disorderly conduct.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay, fine.

Jerremy Newsome:

But number two, the guy across the street didn't have the ability to be able to to

Jerremy Newsome:

think that he was going to injure her.

Jerremy Newsome:

So therefore the other person could not use lawful force.

Jerremy Newsome:

Therefore he was not permitted to do that.

Jerremy Newsome:

So for sure, we're gonna choose, we're gonna charge the guy who shot Jeremy.

Jerremy Newsome:

The next question is, should we charge Jeremy for shooting the other guy?

Jerremy Newsome:

And then you go through that analysis.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay.

Jerremy Newsome:

Did

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: have an actual reasonable apprehension

Jerremy Newsome:

for fear and bodily injury?

Jerremy Newsome:

The answer is yes, he did.

Jerremy Newsome:

He did.

Jerremy Newsome:

So could he assert a self de claim, defense claim?

Jerremy Newsome:

Yes, he can.

Jerremy Newsome:

So I'm the prosecutor.

Jerremy Newsome:

I'm like, okay, Jeremy certainly is being shot at.

Jerremy Newsome:

Jeremy has the right now, and then you have to go back to the beginning.

Jerremy Newsome:

You go by state.

Jerremy Newsome:

By state.

Jerremy Newsome:

Did Jeremy have the right to be where he was?

Jerremy Newsome:

Did he go into their living room and insult the woman?

Jerremy Newsome:

You?

Jerremy Newsome:

And so each state has this pack patchwork of when can you assert

Jerremy Newsome:

the claim of self-defense?

Jerremy Newsome:

And so the prosecutor then would straighten out what?

Jerremy Newsome:

And the cops usually they, they're really good at this 'cause this is their job.

Jerremy Newsome:

This to write the cases in a way and charge in a way.

Jerremy Newsome:

But the prosecutor's job is to make sure out of the gate that the laws

Jerremy Newsome:

are followed and they're match there.

Dave Conley:

Alex, we had the pleasure of talking to a senior police

Dave Conley:

officer with, I don't know, I almost, what, 20 years worth of experience.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Dave Conley:

what I'm hearing is that there's, there what I got from him.

Dave Conley:

Was garbage in, garbage out.

Dave Conley:

was, we asked him, how much training did you get in on, on,

Dave Conley:

on the law, when you were going through becoming a police officer?

Dave Conley:

And he said not a whole lot.

Dave Conley:

And then I asked him how do you find out about laws that change

Dave Conley:

over the course of any given year?

Dave Conley:

And he goes we don't, we have to do it on our own.

Dave Conley:

And what I'm hearing is a police officer will gather a set of facts and

Dave Conley:

whatever those facts may be, they're just going to bring it to a prosecutor.

Dave Conley:

And then the prosecutor is going to fit that into some sort of okay, this is

Dave Conley:

the problem and we can charge it here.

Dave Conley:

So literally it's just a story comes in, it may or may not really have, it may have

Dave Conley:

actually been quite serious and maybe not even recognized by the police officer.

Dave Conley:

And then it gets filtered into this front end.

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah, it is.

Dave Conley:

And I'll give you an example of that.

Dave Conley:

I had a divorce case where in the divorce case, the husband filed a

Dave Conley:

police report against the wife, my client, and he said, oh my God, all

Dave Conley:

these bad things have happened to me.

Dave Conley:

This has happened and that has happened, and she's done this and she's done that.

Dave Conley:

And he gives the guy a binder, a huge binder these things that

Dave Conley:

he claims that are going on.

Dave Conley:

And interestingly he gave, he made a police report on the heels of him losing

Dave Conley:

24 motions in a row in civil court to me.

Dave Conley:

So 24 motions in a row where he raised this exact same garbage.

Dave Conley:

and the trial judge is no.

Dave Conley:

He then files a police report.

Dave Conley:

So the cop takes this set, takes this report, and is this big thick

Dave Conley:

binder and says, oh my God, you've been a victim of domestic violence.

Dave Conley:

You've been tracked, you've been harassed, you've been followed.

Dave Conley:

This is so scary.

Dave Conley:

So he tries to contact my client.

Dave Conley:

And what does a lawyer do when a cop says, I'd like to interview your client.

Dave Conley:

Say, no, you're not talking to my client.

Dave Conley:

You're not gonna talk to her.

Dave Conley:

And so what did that guy do?

Dave Conley:

What that guy did was he wrote, he sent it to the prosecutors for charges.

Dave Conley:

Now, he had, he put in his police report, I recommend you charge this and this,

Dave Conley:

and so I took the guy's deposition.

Dave Conley:

This is a very unusual case.

Dave Conley:

Think about this.

Dave Conley:

So the cop has a criminal case and I have a civil case, and I realized

Dave Conley:

that the guy in the civil case, the husband is bouncing over the criminal

Dave Conley:

law, trying to get criminal charges to help him in his family law case.

Dave Conley:

And so when I realized that this detective has, potentially my client

Dave Conley:

could have felony charges against her, take the cops deposition.

Dave Conley:

I was aggressive what are you talking about?

Dave Conley:

You, you recommended these charges.

Dave Conley:

These are like beyond the three years of statute limitations.

Dave Conley:

Did you know that?

Dave Conley:

Did you look at that?

Dave Conley:

And he's I did.

Dave Conley:

I didn't know that.

Dave Conley:

Did, do you know what the elements are for stalking?

Dave Conley:

What are the elements?

Dave Conley:

I, I don't know.

Dave Conley:

Okay what are the elements for?

Dave Conley:

And I went through these different crimes and the guy didn't know any elements.

Dave Conley:

And I made him look like what he was, which is he just, he was

Dave Conley:

just a paper pusher at that point because he had no one to talk to.

Dave Conley:

And I had pointed out to him that look, your job is to go investigate cases.

Dave Conley:

It's not my job to do your job, which is to investigate cases.

Dave Conley:

So in that particular case the cop made it clear, Hey, I'm just here to write

Dave Conley:

stories and the prosecutor charges.

Dave Conley:

But if you talk to lots of cops, they'll be like, no way.

Dave Conley:

We filed charges.

Dave Conley:

We do this, we do that.

Dave Conley:

And so it depends.

Dave Conley:

But the reality is they tell a story, they gather evidence, and it's up to

Dave Conley:

the prosecutor to decide what to do.

Jerremy Newsome:

Wow.

Jerremy Newsome:

Wow.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay.

Jerremy Newsome:

Thank you for walking through all of that.

Jerremy Newsome:

This is so informative and I've always respected the admired how

Jerremy Newsome:

intelligent and smart you are.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex, what's a plea deal?

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Okay.

Jerremy Newsome:

In every case, the when you so if you ever get arrested or anyone you've ever heard

Jerremy Newsome:

of on TV getting arrested they get what's called discovery from the government.

Jerremy Newsome:

So the government gives you all of their videos, their audios, they

Jerremy Newsome:

usually don't have, and they have their they give their written reports and

Jerremy Newsome:

they give those to the lawyer along with your defendant criminal sheet.

Jerremy Newsome:

So your criminal history along with an offer sheet.

Jerremy Newsome:

And that's a piece of paper that says, okay, exchange for you

Jerremy Newsome:

pleading guilty to the crime of blank, and blank, we will offer you.

Jerremy Newsome:

To, serve X amount of time or no amount of time.

Jerremy Newsome:

For example, somebody gets a DUI, and they'll say, okay, the mandatory state

Jerremy Newsome:

minimum is 24 hours consecutive in jail.

Jerremy Newsome:

So our offer is for you to spend 24 hours in jail to plead

Jerremy Newsome:

guilty to the charge of DUI.

Jerremy Newsome:

So let's just say it's an assault two case.

Jerremy Newsome:

So second degree assault.

Jerremy Newsome:

They'll say, our offer to you is if you plead guilty to the gr to the

Jerremy Newsome:

crime of second degree assault, we will only recommend 30 days in jail.

Jerremy Newsome:

Now, here's where, I guess this is where the cooks get in the kitchen is the

Jerremy Newsome:

prosecutors, oftentimes, in my experience, half the time to 75% of the time, they

Jerremy Newsome:

add on what are otherwise bullshit claims in order to stick the person

Jerremy Newsome:

with the real claim, the real crime.

Jerremy Newsome:

For example, anytime I see resisting a resisting charge it, you talk to any

Jerremy Newsome:

defense attorney in the country, they will say 100% of resisting charges are

Jerremy Newsome:

bullshit charges unless you actually have a actual true outside video.

Jerremy Newsome:

I have seen hundreds and hundreds of videos as a prosecutor, and I've been

Jerremy Newsome:

doing this for over 20 years, the cops will be laying on top of somebody ripping

Jerremy Newsome:

their arm, shouting, stop resisting.

Jerremy Newsome:

You've seen it before on YouTube.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Broke.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yes.

Jerremy Newsome:

The person is trying to wiggle because you're breaking their damn arm.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so resisting is different than trying to get into a

Jerremy Newsome:

position so you can be arrested.

Jerremy Newsome:

And it's not saying that you actually defense attorneys,

Jerremy Newsome:

we call it contempt of cop.

Jerremy Newsome:

You told the cop no.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so now you're gonna get a resisting charge.

Jerremy Newsome:

The prosecutors will add on additional charges, and the cops

Jerremy Newsome:

will recommend those things because they're like, Hey, that's not right.

Jerremy Newsome:

So they'll add a bunch of kind of throwaway charges in exchange for

Jerremy Newsome:

you to plead guilty to the big one.

Jerremy Newsome:

So instead of you having one charge that you're for sure gonna have a problem with,

Jerremy Newsome:

they'll add charges to three and four, and they'll say, in exchange for you pleading

Jerremy Newsome:

guilty to charge number one, we'll dismiss charges two, three, and four.

Jerremy Newsome:

But you gotta serve the full time on charge one as opposed

Jerremy Newsome:

to if it was just charge one.

Jerremy Newsome:

Let's say you're charged with assault two.

Jerremy Newsome:

I've done a lot of assault.

Jerremy Newsome:

Two cases those are felonies.

Jerremy Newsome:

Those are, you're 10 years in prisons, they're class B felonies.

Jerremy Newsome:

There's, they're serious.

Jerremy Newsome:

And I frequently will negotiate those down to a lesser charge of assault for where

Jerremy Newsome:

the person does say three days in jail.

Jerremy Newsome:

I. Or they'll do a bracelet for 30 days, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

Or they just basically go home and work.

Jerremy Newsome:

So that's how you would negotiate a case.

Jerremy Newsome:

And who you're dealing with at the prosecutor's office is exclusively gonna

Jerremy Newsome:

determine what kind of a deal you're able to get that you don't have to fight for.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yep.

Jerremy Newsome:

So you would say then that there are prosecutor tactics that you've seen

Jerremy Newsome:

consistently tip the scales unfairly.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: You just drive across county lines.

Jerremy Newsome:

Anyone, you don't have to, you don't have to take my word for it.

Jerremy Newsome:

Ask.

Jerremy Newsome:

Ask what is ask Go.

Jerremy Newsome:

Go ask any defense attorney

Jerremy Newsome:

State.

Jerremy Newsome:

Hey.

Jerremy Newsome:

From this county to that county?

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Ask any of them anywhere, any state and say do the prosecutors charge

Jerremy Newsome:

misdemeanor cases the same in every, in, in the two counties where DUIs

Jerremy Newsome:

are stuff everybody knows instead of the more, different crimes.

Jerremy Newsome:

But DUIs in one county like where I practice in Washington state, in

Jerremy Newsome:

one county, doesn't matter what your first DUI, they will never reduce

Jerremy Newsome:

the DUI down to a reckless driving in order to induce the person to plead

Jerremy Newsome:

guilty in the county next to it.

Jerremy Newsome:

They will always reduce it from A DUI to a reckless in order to

Jerremy Newsome:

make sure you do accept the deal.

Jerremy Newsome:

One office is trying to get rid of cases and one office is trying to keep cases.

Jerremy Newsome:

Why?

Jerremy Newsome:

That's becomes a tax question, becomes a prosecutor question,

Jerremy Newsome:

becomes a public question.

Jerremy Newsome:

But the problem is that you drive literally 10 feet on

Jerremy Newsome:

the wrong side of the county.

Jerremy Newsome:

You're for sure going to make sure the mandatory minimums of DUI apply

Jerremy Newsome:

to you versus the other county where hey, you get a reckless driving.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yes.

Jerremy Newsome:

Wow.

Jerremy Newsome:

Whoa.

Jerremy Newsome:

So all right on, on that topic, which is just still perplexing me.

Jerremy Newsome:

In a, in just a baffling way, have you seen or witnessed or experienced courts

Jerremy Newsome:

suppress evidence that could free someone

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: I have seen it in lots of cases.

Jerremy Newsome:

There's lots of national cases, like we know, for example.

Jerremy Newsome:

Here's how it works.

Jerremy Newsome:

This is, this happens in every day in every single courthouse.

Jerremy Newsome:

Somebody there's, that will suppress evidence.

Jerremy Newsome:

The question is it evidence that should be suppressed?

Jerremy Newsome:

Here's an example.

Jerremy Newsome:

valid point.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: you have somebody let's say in a this makes it easy.

Jerremy Newsome:

In a child custody case, mom says to the judge, Hey, judge, my children

Jerremy Newsome:

told me that dad watches pornography.

Jerremy Newsome:

Objection, hearsay.

Jerremy Newsome:

Sustained.

Jerremy Newsome:

So the court will sustain the objection, which means that the

Jerremy Newsome:

objection's a good objection.

Jerremy Newsome:

And therefore she cannot bring that evidence in because it's

Jerremy Newsome:

her own testimony, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

She's the one saying what the kids said.

Jerremy Newsome:

If the kids were there, then they could testify to it.

Jerremy Newsome:

As a sidebar, kids can't come into court and testify, so therefore,

Jerremy Newsome:

the evidence never comes in.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay?

Jerremy Newsome:

Now you're in a criminal setting.

Jerremy Newsome:

Someone's been arrested for a crime, and the person says, when they're

Jerremy Newsome:

arrested, they say, look, bitch, it wasn't my gun, it was my brother's gun.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay?

Jerremy Newsome:

Now very, the prosecutor now want to suppress that statement.

Jerremy Newsome:

A statement that the defendant himself said, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

And the reason why they'd want to just suppress that statement is because that

Jerremy Newsome:

statement is helpful with the defendant.

Jerremy Newsome:

When he says, it's not my gun.

Jerremy Newsome:

What did he say?

Jerremy Newsome:

The cops pulled up.

Jerremy Newsome:

He says, it's not my gun.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so there's a rule, it's called self-serving hearsay.

Jerremy Newsome:

It was a statement that was made out of court that was self-serving, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

So therefore, that statement gets suppressed.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so in criminal cases, you'll have evidence that could suppress all the

Jerremy Newsome:

time that is relevant and material.

Jerremy Newsome:

But they decide that the prejudicial value, so for example,

Jerremy Newsome:

in 100% of rape cases, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

You're gonna hear, I know you're gonna hear that.

Jerremy Newsome:

The prosecutor will try to bring in all kinds of, let's say for example,

Jerremy Newsome:

you have Chad, the rapist, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

He's the campus rapist, he's being accused of raping these girls.

Jerremy Newsome:

And Chad's I'm completely innocent.

Jerremy Newsome:

This, nothing's ever happened.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so he wants what he wants to do, he wants to bring in all of

Jerremy Newsome:

his church friends, talk about what a good Christian Guy he is.

Jerremy Newsome:

He wants to bring in his mom and his dad.

Jerremy Newsome:

The court's no, you don't get, bring in character witnesses for that, but we are

Jerremy Newsome:

gonna bring in witnesses to show that you're a scumbag among the community.

Jerremy Newsome:

So we'll bring those in.

Jerremy Newsome:

And if Chad has been accused of rape before, will also get excluded.

Jerremy Newsome:

So think about this, if Chad's been the eight time campus rapist,

Jerremy Newsome:

and they're, they've all been different rapes, different types of

Jerremy Newsome:

rapes as opposed to the same type.

Jerremy Newsome:

We'll get that in a secondary.

Jerremy Newsome:

They're all different types of rapes.

Jerremy Newsome:

Chad's defense attorney goes, judge, you can't bring in all those other

Jerremy Newsome:

seven convictions for this one because the jury is just going to Yes.

Jerremy Newsome:

They're it's relevant because yes, it shows that Chad's a rapist.

Jerremy Newsome:

I just want him to be tried on these particular facts.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so therefore, for Chad's sake, it's actually helpful for him that you limit

Jerremy Newsome:

your case to whatever's in front of him.

Jerremy Newsome:

But yeah, but if there was a pattern, if there's a pattern of that happening,

Jerremy Newsome:

other rapes happening where it was all the same, then you could bring those in

Jerremy Newsome:

and say, this is a, this is not a mistake.

Jerremy Newsome:

This is a practice.

Jerremy Newsome:

So there's evidence that courts have to weigh every single day.

Jerremy Newsome:

And it's different in state court versus federal court federal courts.

Jerremy Newsome:

And you'll notice like, why are so many, you look at racial populations in

Jerremy Newsome:

federal courts versus in state courts.

Jerremy Newsome:

If you look at those, look at those, sometime you get a chance,

Jerremy Newsome:

look at the racial DI differences between who's in federal courts

Jerremy Newsome:

versus who's in state courts.

Jerremy Newsome:

Federal courts, different rules, harsher sentences, harder prisons.

Jerremy Newsome:

Literally, they're literally different rules.

Jerremy Newsome:

The rules of evidence are different.

Jerremy Newsome:

The court rules are different.

Jerremy Newsome:

How you talk to the judge is different.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so who are the people that are getting charged federally and

Jerremy Newsome:

who's getting charged in the state?

Jerremy Newsome:

I. And so for the longest time, it was well known that, if you

Jerremy Newsome:

were if you were smoking weed the majority of the population at the

Jerremy Newsome:

time was black who was doing that.

Jerremy Newsome:

And they were being charged in federal courts.

Jerremy Newsome:

And federal courts had higher prison sentence sentences for that crime.

Jerremy Newsome:

And then as opposed to you had white people generally were doing cocaine

Jerremy Newsome:

and they were being charged in state courts, which had lower rules of evidence

Jerremy Newsome:

and shorter shorter prison sentences.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so it's this weird, it's this weird thing between state

Jerremy Newsome:

courts and federal courts.

Jerremy Newsome:

So that's, that, that's a long, deep topic.

Jerremy Newsome:

But you will have been familiar with this from Donald Trump's case where

Jerremy Newsome:

Donald Trump would, was not charged for the same crime, was not charged

Jerremy Newsome:

federally, was charged in the state court.

Jerremy Newsome:

So in other words, state courts and federal courts can both charge

Jerremy Newsome:

the same crimes if they wanted to.

Jerremy Newsome:

Why are they sending people to prison federally versus states?

Jerremy Newsome:

That's an interesting rabbit hole to get down.

Dave Conley:

So how is that decided?

Dave Conley:

Is it just independent?

Dave Conley:

Does a, a district attorney at the federal level to say, oh, I'm

Dave Conley:

gonna, I'm gonna pick that up?

Dave Conley:

Or is there, I don't know, for lack of a better term, like collusion between

Dave Conley:

like state and federal to figure

Dave Conley:

I'm taking it and, or you're taking it.

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: it depends on who's telling the story.

Dave Conley:

Who's the cop?

Dave Conley:

A federal or state cop who wrote the story.

Dave Conley:

If it goes across state lines, they're generally gonna say, Hey, we'll turn this

Dave Conley:

over as a, for a federal prosecution.

Dave Conley:

But there are lots of crimes that are simply state crimes

Dave Conley:

that happen in your state.

Dave Conley:

There is no federal anything, right?

Dave Conley:

All we have are states.

Dave Conley:

So we have states here, so why aren't we just charged in the states, right?

Dave Conley:

And so the answer is because what do we do about interstate crimes?

Dave Conley:

They don't wanna bring witnesses.

Dave Conley:

That's why we have, witnesses from here to there.

Dave Conley:

That's why they do it in federal court.

Dave Conley:

So yeah, it's, it there's some horse trading.

Dave Conley:

It's a weird patchwork of law if you get sucked into that little rabbit hole.

Jerremy Newsome:

That is wild ma'am.

Jerremy Newsome:

From a perspective of let's just go systemic for a second.

Jerremy Newsome:

Big picture.

Jerremy Newsome:

'cause you've taught lawyers, judges, what blind spots do even the

Jerremy Newsome:

professionals have about the system.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Oh, this is so basic.

Jerremy Newsome:

It's the human nature.

Jerremy Newsome:

I am right.

Jerremy Newsome:

I am might right.

Jerremy Newsome:

is.

Jerremy Newsome:

It is the human pride nobody stops and says, God, do I really have this right?

Jerremy Newsome:

That's where it starts and it starts right off the top with judges.

Jerremy Newsome:

Judges who are not humble about the fact that just because you wore a

Jerremy Newsome:

black costume, your little black cape costume doesn't make you an intellect.

Jerremy Newsome:

It doesn't make you a truth teller.

Jerremy Newsome:

You're not a wizard.

Jerremy Newsome:

Thing this as a judge.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yes.

Jerremy Newsome:

You are simply a person who is asked, who should be in humility saying, by God, I

Jerremy Newsome:

hope I, what I'm doing is right, because this is the evidence I have before me.

Jerremy Newsome:

I don't know if this is true.

Jerremy Newsome:

We know that in every day, in every court, somebody is innocent and

Jerremy Newsome:

they're going to jail for this.

Jerremy Newsome:

We know this.

Jerremy Newsome:

We know this to be the case.

Jerremy Newsome:

We know people who are factually innocent.

Jerremy Newsome:

You had a judge.

Jerremy Newsome:

You had a prosecutor.

Jerremy Newsome:

You had 10 cops.

Jerremy Newsome:

You had 12 jurors.

Jerremy Newsome:

Guilty.

Jerremy Newsome:

They then win the court of appeals, no denied then.

Jerremy Newsome:

Then the Supreme Court denied then back up to an interlocutory appeal denied.

Jerremy Newsome:

You have all of these judges.

Jerremy Newsome:

were all there sitting in equity over this case, sticking

Jerremy Newsome:

in law who all got it wrong.

Jerremy Newsome:

And at no point do you hear those guys on a podcast saying,

Jerremy Newsome:

the hell did we blow this case?

Jerremy Newsome:

Like, how in the hell did we miss this?

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Correct me if,

Dave Conley:

There's no punishment either, right?

Dave Conley:

Like

Jerremy Newsome:

oh, good point, Dave.

Dave Conley:

and somebody can be on death row be exonerated saying,

Dave Conley:

okay, actually we got this wrong.

Dave Conley:

And that all of those people in that chain, from the arresting officer

Dave Conley:

to the prosecutors, to the jury, to all the way through the appeals

Dave Conley:

process down to the governor,

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: yes.

Dave Conley:

oh, got it wrong.

Dave Conley:

And yet it's oh, And then a big shrub, so what I think, this goes to my

Dave Conley:

question, which is like, would it take to actually reform the system if the

Dave Conley:

people in it don't seem to give a shit?

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: Wow.

Dave Conley:

I think the problem with finality appeal finality here's the problem.

Dave Conley:

You have a trial judge, they have a, somebody gets convicted yep, you did it.

Dave Conley:

They go to prison.

Dave Conley:

It is very hard.

Dave Conley:

The court of appeals are designed built to uphold whatever the lower court says.

Dave Conley:

Every practicing lawyer knows that.

Dave Conley:

The court of appeals judges say that's not true, but okay, all the other lawyers

Dave Conley:

in the country think that's the case.

Dave Conley:

So in other words, if there's a mistake that happens, and the problem is what

Dave Conley:

you get is what's called finality.

Dave Conley:

So when the courts make a final decision, that's it.

Dave Conley:

It's over.

Dave Conley:

And so I suspect from a systemic standpoint there are some cases that

Dave Conley:

just your appeal shouldn't be final.

Dave Conley:

I just think you should be able to continue to bring appeals.

Dave Conley:

Because there's just these weird cases you hear about somebody being convicted for a

Dave Conley:

drive-by shooting, and then later on they end up getting a video eight years later

Dave Conley:

that it was actually a different person.

Dave Conley:

And the judge will deny the video coming in for a new trial because they said the

Dave Conley:

vi the evidence was available at the time of your original trial, and therefore

Dave Conley:

it's not newly discovered evidence under CR 60 B four, and therefore it is passed.

Dave Conley:

No, yeah.

Dave Conley:

And therefore it's passed one year and therefore appeal denied.

Dave Conley:

And you're like, but hold on a second.

Jerremy Newsome:

Wow.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: You tralo die.

Jerremy Newsome:

You horrible goblin from hell, this man has a video that is not him.

Jerremy Newsome:

You

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: and you don't hear,

Jerremy Newsome:

I'm blown away over here, dude.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: And you don't hear judges pulling their hair out

Jerremy Newsome:

saying, oh my God, we made a mistake.

Jerremy Newsome:

Oh my God.

Jerremy Newsome:

Oh my.

Jerremy Newsome:

That's

Jerremy Newsome:

heard that in my 37 years on this earth.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

And to Dave's point, to Dave's point, that is Dave okay?

Jerremy Newsome:

In any other part of this country?

Jerremy Newsome:

I think for the, at least the majority that I'm thinking of right now if

Jerremy Newsome:

you do something that is literally incorrect and another person's life gets

Jerremy Newsome:

impacted, there's repercussions to that.

Jerremy Newsome:

To your point.

Dave Conley:

should be for every person who has been wrongfully.

Dave Conley:

and sent to jail, or God forbid, put to death by the state.

Dave Conley:

We should be lamenting those cases every day.

Dave Conley:

This is not just a miscarriage of justice.

Dave Conley:

It's is really screwing with other human beings.

Dave Conley:

We can't allow other people to do this to other people.

Dave Conley:

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah, it's wild.

Dave Conley:

I just,

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah.

Dave Conley:

disappointing.

Dave Conley:

I look, I get that we're human and we get, make mistakes.

Dave Conley:

What I don't understand is that we're just going to shrug and be like, eh, whatever.

Dave Conley:

That's just the

Jerremy Newsome:

They

Dave Conley:

80, 80 20, 80 20 rule when people's lives are at stake.

Dave Conley:

Come on.

Jerremy Newsome:

they do get some money when they come out Hey man,

Jerremy Newsome:

you've been in prison 20 years and you shouldn't have been my bad.

Jerremy Newsome:

They get, they get

Dave Conley:

alex, let me ask you this, because we've talked now to a lot of

Dave Conley:

people who have been through the system.

Dave Conley:

And 100% of them have said, the punishment didn't change me.

Dave Conley:

The punishment

Dave Conley:

Me to where I am today.

Dave Conley:

What got me to where I am today was really hard work, was a pathway forward,

Dave Conley:

was recognizing the problems that I, it was a lot of inner work, but the years

Dave Conley:

behind jail was ir almost irrelevant.

Dave Conley:

What is the view of prosecutors, juries, and judges when it comes,

Dave Conley:

or even politicians when it comes to throw 'em, throw 'em in jail,

Dave Conley:

lock 'em away, throw away the key.

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: I here's why you do that.

Dave Conley:

Public safety, recidivism, risk, that's re-offense.

Dave Conley:

Shorter sentences ensures that inmates who are going to be dangerous or who are going

Dave Conley:

to continue to steal, do their behaviors.

Dave Conley:

If they're out, they're gonna commit crimes.

Dave Conley:

And we know this, for example, in your own experience, some

Dave Conley:

people are just bad people.

Dave Conley:

just gonna keep doing the same shit over and over again.

Dave Conley:

That's gonna happen.

Dave Conley:

And therefore, when you are a prosecutor dealing with supposed criminals all

Dave Conley:

day long, every day, you're like, I don't wanna see this crime again.

Dave Conley:

And so think about in terms of this is a child rapist, right?

Dave Conley:

Somebody who, let's say, who legitimately commits child rape.

Dave Conley:

We don't want that person to re-offend.

Dave Conley:

In fact, nobody wants a person out there.

Dave Conley:

Nobody wants that crime.

Dave Conley:

Nobody wants that person around there.

Dave Conley:

So what do you do with that?

Dave Conley:

State by state, you're like we're going to increase the time of incarceration.

Dave Conley:

So in Arizona, a picture of a single image of child

Dave Conley:

pornography is 10 years in prison.

Dave Conley:

Why?

Dave Conley:

Is it because that's more dangerous than somebody shooting

Dave Conley:

children as on a school ground?

Dave Conley:

No, it's because that's really gross and we wanna see that happening.

Dave Conley:

So you have recidivism, concerns, deterrence of crime.

Dave Conley:

That's another reason why they'd say look, if you have high prison sentences,

Dave Conley:

it's gonna make people say, oh my god.

Dave Conley:

Of course that assumes that people are rational actors, which they're not.

Dave Conley:

They're emotional actors.

Dave Conley:

The reason most of these crimes are, and this is a fun little

Dave Conley:

fact about the, you've heard there's I caught you red handed,

Dave Conley:

There was a law that if you caught your wife, not your husband, if you caught

Dave Conley:

your wife in bed you caught her in bed with another man, you could kill her

Dave Conley:

and the man, and you had a red hand defense, which was a defense to murder.

Dave Conley:

It was a reduced, it would still have been manslaughter, but it's still

Dave Conley:

this idea that there's mitigating circumstances to your anger.

Dave Conley:

Anger, so therefore you couldn't be charged with those elements due to the

Dave Conley:

hyper emotional state that you're in.

Dave Conley:

And everyone understood that at the time.

Dave Conley:

Obviously that's not the case now, but what you see when people are

Dave Conley:

committing crimes, the majority of the time, they're crimes of passion.

Dave Conley:

They're, or pleasure.

Dave Conley:

So yeah, so you have look, we don't want just a bunch of

Dave Conley:

scumbags, looting our stores.

Dave Conley:

Do we wanna have Kmart looted by 50,000 kids coming and stealing stuff?

Dave Conley:

No.

Dave Conley:

Do we wanna have, your do you wanna have citizens attacking cops and doing whatever

Dave Conley:

they wanna do because they're juveniles?

Dave Conley:

No.

Dave Conley:

What do we do?

Dave Conley:

I say I don't have to do with them.

Dave Conley:

We'll throw 'em in jail.

Dave Conley:

They go to prison as punishment, not for punishment.

Dave Conley:

So prison shouldn't be like this horrible place, in my opinion.

Dave Conley:

It's but you go for punishment.

Dave Conley:

That is your punishment.

Dave Conley:

The flip side, we also heard from the police officers

Dave Conley:

that are like, arrest these people and they're out that day.

Dave Conley:

And that's, that was a, that was the other side of this.

Dave Conley:

It's it doesn't seem like there is reform on the side of punishment and when

Dave Conley:

there's punishment it's not being done.

Dave Conley:

where.

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah.

Dave Conley:

Let's talk about that for a second.

Dave Conley:

The concern about the revolving door is a, that is a bond question.

Dave Conley:

In this country, anytime that you are arrested for a crime, you go to jail.

Dave Conley:

Or if you, yeah, you're arrested, you go to jail and they'll process

Dave Conley:

you and release you on what is you called, your own pr, your own personal

Dave Conley:

recognizance, saying, alright, this is the first time Dave's been arrested.

Dave Conley:

He has a house, he's got a, he's upstanding manner of community based

Dave Conley:

upon your own personal recognizance.

Dave Conley:

Come on back.

Dave Conley:

But if it's a serious crime, they will want you to post bail.

Dave Conley:

So there's some type of a felony.

Dave Conley:

And so the bail or bond may be something like, it's $10,000 or

Dave Conley:

it's a hundred thousand dollars.

Dave Conley:

So a drive-by shooting would be like a hundred thousand dollars bond.

Dave Conley:

And so if you wanna get out on bail, you will post a bond.

Dave Conley:

So then your parents go across the street, or your family goes across

Dave Conley:

the street to a bonding agency.

Dave Conley:

They get a hundred thousand dollars note, they pay $10,000 for that.

Dave Conley:

And they walk across back to the court and they say, here's

Dave Conley:

a hundred thousand dollars.

Dave Conley:

If my guy doesn't show up for jail, then then you can

Dave Conley:

take, you can keep this money.

Dave Conley:

And so the incentive is we exchange money.

Dave Conley:

For security, you'll appear back a court.

Dave Conley:

So the people that they're talking about the revolving door are

Dave Conley:

people who have no resources, no money, no incentive to return.

Dave Conley:

But that's why they're just like, what does it matter?

Dave Conley:

We don't wanna house them here.

Dave Conley:

It's just a stupid little property crime.

Dave Conley:

It was 500 bucks from Home Depot.

Dave Conley:

But you add that up and you and I are paying for that.

Dave Conley:

So that's how we get there.

Dave Conley:

Hey, so talk to me about jury trials.

Dave Conley:

What's scary about jury trials?

Dave Conley:

What's their role in the system and how are they crazy?

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: It really depends on what side you're on.

Dave Conley:

Had jury trials as a prosecutor.

Dave Conley:

I've had jury trials as a defense attorney.

Dave Conley:

I've had civil jury trials.

Dave Conley:

So let's talk about, as a prosecutor, I had a felony murder case that

Dave Conley:

I was trying where the defendant.

Dave Conley:

Was six foot three, 240 pounds of rock hard muscle.

Dave Conley:

He was 21 years old and he was walking around seven 11

Jerremy Newsome:

Just describe me by the way, like I feel.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Rock hard muscle.

Jerremy Newsome:

Holy crap.

Jerremy Newsome:

This guy, he had slippers, like gangster slippers and he is walking around

Jerremy Newsome:

for 19 minutes and 28 seconds inside of a seven 11 at night, just walking

Jerremy Newsome:

around, pacing up and down the aisle.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay.

Jerremy Newsome:

And what was he was doing while his girlfriend, I forget her name.

Jerremy Newsome:

It was a hilarious name.

Jerremy Newsome:

It was so gross as a pro side note, it was a prosecutor.

Jerremy Newsome:

I had to interview the girlfriend and she wore all this disgusting perfume and I had

Jerremy Newsome:

to meet her in the CD motel and then she started coming on to me and it was like,

Jerremy Newsome:

just this whole thing was so gross, ugh.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alright.

Jerremy Newsome:

So the guy, so the defendant's walking around and this five foot

Jerremy Newsome:

two 66-year-old Filipino man with heart disease is mopping the floor.

Jerremy Newsome:

And you can see inside of the camera, a scuffle happens, and then there's a shot.

Jerremy Newsome:

Boom, the guy runs out, gets into the car, and the girlfriend screams,

Jerremy Newsome:

oh my God, why did you shoot him?

Jerremy Newsome:

And he says, because I'm a gangster.

Jerremy Newsome:

So cops arrest him.

Jerremy Newsome:

They find him like an hour later.

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So through the whole jury process, I'm going through and explaining

Jerremy Newsome:

look here's the surveillance camera and here's the guy here.

Jerremy Newsome:

Here's what we saw.

Jerremy Newsome:

We're explaining like the, I've got gunshot residue experts showing

Jerremy Newsome:

the distance between the shot pattern and the blood spatter.

Jerremy Newsome:

We introduced the guy's jacket he was wearing, the defendant, his

Jerremy Newsome:

shirt, he was wearing his pants, his two shoes, and one sock.

Jerremy Newsome:

find the other sock.

Jerremy Newsome:

We don't have any other sock.

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so at the end of that trial we had the evidence, this guy,

Jerremy Newsome:

that the old man was shot in the back from about eight feet away.

Jerremy Newsome:

That based upon the blood spatter and the the pat, the pattern on his,

Jerremy Newsome:

the on his back, it in the back.

Jerremy Newsome:

By the way, we couldn't get a conviction.

Jerremy Newsome:

when I pulled the jurors afterwards, one of the jurors said I think you

Jerremy Newsome:

as a white prosecutor did something with his sock and you hid that and so

Jerremy Newsome:

therefore there was something exculpatory about that evidence about the sock.

Jerremy Newsome:

So we had to retry the whole case.

Jerremy Newsome:

It was another three week trial.

Jerremy Newsome:

And then that case was like, and detective, did you find the other sock?

Jerremy Newsome:

No.

Jerremy Newsome:

Where was it?

Jerremy Newsome:

We don't know.

Jerremy Newsome:

We just, he showed up.

Jerremy Newsome:

He had one sock and we arrested him.

Jerremy Newsome:

Are you sure?

Jerremy Newsome:

Was, and we went through a whole sock thing when people were

Jerremy Newsome:

at the, we got a conviction.

Jerremy Newsome:

And, that jury people were like, what's the deal with that stupid sock?

Jerremy Newsome:

We're like, trust me.

Jerremy Newsome:

It was important.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay, so that's the criminal side.

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I had a a defense case where I was talking to the jury in voir dire or voir dire,

Jerremy Newsome:

that's where the jury sits in a room.

Jerremy Newsome:

There's a hundred people.

Jerremy Newsome:

So ever call the jury.

Jerremy Newsome:

Here's the secret that you need to know.

Jerremy Newsome:

If you're in the first three rows, you might get picked.

Jerremy Newsome:

you're in the back, it doesn't matter.

Jerremy Newsome:

You're not gonna get picked, but they still will call on you

Jerremy Newsome:

because what they're trying to do is elicit a response from you.

Jerremy Newsome:

So the first three rows you can figure out if they're crazy.

Jerremy Newsome:

Like process of elimination is just, are you crazy or not?

Jerremy Newsome:

And so I had this case where my guy was charged with Strang and his

Jerremy Newsome:

girlfriend interfering with the 9 1 1 call, assault two all this stuff.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so I started to the jury, and here's what's crazy.

Jerremy Newsome:

This is still, this is so insane.

Jerremy Newsome:

The cop, by the way, who was the arresting officer, happened to be a cop that I had

Jerremy Newsome:

on many other cases in my favor, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

So he and I were good buddies, like we're really good friends.

Jerremy Newsome:

And I, so I walk over to behind the cop, the prosecutors

Jerremy Newsome:

know this, judge know this.

Jerremy Newsome:

And I put my hand on the cop's shoulder as again, I'm defending my guy.

Jerremy Newsome:

I said, does anyone here love wife beaters?

Jerremy Newsome:

Nobody raises their hand.

Jerremy Newsome:

Does anyone think that it's okay to strangle your girlfriend?

Jerremy Newsome:

No.

Jerremy Newsome:

No takers.

Jerremy Newsome:

How about if someone's calling the do I said, thank God that

Jerremy Newsome:

didn't happen in this case.

Jerremy Newsome:

Does anyone know that?

Jerremy Newsome:

Does anyone believe the cops don't make mistakes?

Jerremy Newsome:

And this, I still have my hand on this guy's shoulder.

Jerremy Newsome:

And nobody, there's two or three people raised their hand.

Jerremy Newsome:

Oh, juror number 14, you don't think cops make a mistake?

Jerremy Newsome:

No, they have special training.

Jerremy Newsome:

I said gimme an example about what they would, so you walk through this whole

Jerremy Newsome:

process, you being eliminating jurors.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so in that case, I said to the jury, so when I'm opening statement, I said,

Jerremy Newsome:

when this case is over, you are not only going to find my client is not guilty

Jerremy Newsome:

of these crimes, you're going to demand the judge charge this victim, this sh

Jerremy Newsome:

shameless hussy, and you're gonna make the government pay all my attorney fees.

Jerremy Newsome:

The end of that trial, all five counts, were not guilty.

Jerremy Newsome:

All they, the jury actually wanted her, they actually said the

Jerremy Newsome:

judge, Hey, we wanna charge her.

Jerremy Newsome:

That lawyer, Alex said, you could do that.

Jerremy Newsome:

The judge is Alex just made that up.

Jerremy Newsome:

And and we, for winning the case, we actually got all

Jerremy Newsome:

of our defense fees costs.

Jerremy Newsome:

So we got $214,000 in attorney fees because it was a self-defense case.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah, I, yeah, you bet.

Jerremy Newsome:

I grabbed her arms.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yes, I did slam her arm.

Jerremy Newsome:

The door.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yes.

Jerremy Newsome:

'cause she was attacking me and the jury.

Jerremy Newsome:

And therefore, if you win on self-defense, you get your attorney fees,

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex, this is I love your memorization, which is why I'm really

Jerremy Newsome:

excited about this particular question.

Jerremy Newsome:

Tell us one case that really stands out in your entire illustrious career.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: On a criminal or civil.

Jerremy Newsome:

Let's do criminal.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Okay.

Jerremy Newsome:

Here's a great and this is how, this is the case.

Jerremy Newsome:

That never was, but this could happen to you.

Jerremy Newsome:

This listen to me, could happen to you.

Jerremy Newsome:

You have a doctor, nerdy little Seventh Day Adventist.

Jerremy Newsome:

This little dork pleat wearing pants.

Jerremy Newsome:

Go into Sunday church or Saturday Church not working.

Jerremy Newsome:

On Fridays middle of the night.

Jerremy Newsome:

The doors of his home get broken into.

Jerremy Newsome:

Cops come in with warrants.

Jerremy Newsome:

They're feds, they possess his phone, his computer his printer, any

Jerremy Newsome:

electronic he has in his house, and they charge him with possession and

Jerremy Newsome:

trafficking and child pornography.

Jerremy Newsome:

This dorky doctor, just this glasses wearing guy, has no idea, doesn't even

Jerremy Newsome:

know how to, he's got a flip phone, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

And so front page news doctor, possession of child pornography,

Jerremy Newsome:

doctor this, doctor that.

Jerremy Newsome:

He is oh my God.

Jerremy Newsome:

So what does partners do,

Dave Conley:

Yeah.

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah.

Dave Conley:

They, of course they cut ties immediately from the guy, right?

Dave Conley:

What do his patients do?

Dave Conley:

We're not having a kiddie porn doctor.

Dave Conley:

You're out.

Dave Conley:

Business goes under right?

Dave Conley:

forward, you're like 16 months in.

Dave Conley:

Come to find out that the feds had known for about three

Dave Conley:

months after the initial rest.

Dave Conley:

There was no child pornography in this guy's computer.

Dave Conley:

And in fact, what was happening was that there was an outfit out of Southeast Asia

Dave Conley:

that was using his and other people's computers to traffic through at night.

Jerremy Newsome:

Oh, shoot.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: computers, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

They were turned on and they were storing images that way.

Jerremy Newsome:

And then they were then removing that way.

Jerremy Newsome:

So the feds knew that, and the prosecutors in that case, and the county prosecutors

Jerremy Newsome:

kept that man charged for another nine months until finally we were able to

Jerremy Newsome:

get the reports from the feds and were like, what the hell's wrong with you?

Jerremy Newsome:

so the next question is, okay, so then the prosecutor dismisses the charges, okay.

Jerremy Newsome:

But this man's life has been totally ruined.

Jerremy Newsome:

you have a remedy for this?

Jerremy Newsome:

The answer is no.

Jerremy Newsome:

And here's the reason why.

Jerremy Newsome:

There's actually a statute that's, that you're allowed to do.

Jerremy Newsome:

It's called malicious prosecution.

Jerremy Newsome:

You can sue, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

The government, but you have to show the following four elements.

Jerremy Newsome:

You have to show.

Jerremy Newsome:

Number one, was an initiation of criminal proceedings check.

Jerremy Newsome:

There was lack of probable cause, which is the absence of reasonable grounds

Jerremy Newsome:

to believe plaintiff was guilty.

Jerremy Newsome:

like we thought he was, you are like, okay, but then malice, the

Jerremy Newsome:

prosecution was initiated an improper motive initiated, not continued.

Jerremy Newsome:

It was in, it was like, no, it was initiated with a good motive.

Jerremy Newsome:

And therefore a favorable termination if the proceedings end in your favor

Jerremy Newsome:

through dismissal or acquittal.

Jerremy Newsome:

So that's the only way you can do it.

Jerremy Newsome:

So they can say the charges got dismissed, but now there was, there's no remedy

Jerremy Newsome:

because the proceedings weren't initiated.

Jerremy Newsome:

They just were maintained.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so this man's life is now ruined.

Jerremy Newsome:

You think there are any newspaper articles saying, gee whiz, we goofed.

Jerremy Newsome:

There was no no pronouncement from the courts saying, oh my God, run

Jerremy Newsome:

this on the front page of the paper.

Jerremy Newsome:

No.

Jerremy Newsome:

So that's insane,

Dave Conley:

Hey, this episode brought to you by Express VPN.

Dave Conley:

Please use the code Jeremy at checkout.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Norton, VPN.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yes.

Jerremy Newsome:

The sponsor of today's episode.

Jerremy Newsome:

That is terrifying, man.

Jerremy Newsome:

That is really wild.

Jerremy Newsome:

Oh, Alex, this has been so intriguing to me because again, to your point,

Jerremy Newsome:

there's just so many sides and I know that there's so much That's right,

Jerremy Newsome:

and there's a lot that's wrong.

Jerremy Newsome:

If you had a magic wand, you got one portion of the justice system that you

Jerremy Newsome:

could change, what part would it be?

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: I think I actually, I sent this to Donald Trump as part of his

Jerremy Newsome:

I used to work for him back in the day.

Jerremy Newsome:

I sent this to one of his committee members.

Jerremy Newsome:

Thi this in my opinion, if you look at what is the judicial system, is it?

Jerremy Newsome:

It's not.

Jerremy Newsome:

So we have statutory codes.

Jerremy Newsome:

We have the two types of laws.

Jerremy Newsome:

We have Adic law and Istic law.

Jerremy Newsome:

Thou shalt not kill, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

Versus if you swing an ax and the don and the ax swings and hits a donkey's head.

Jerremy Newsome:

So istic law laws that are written by codes, we live

Jerremy Newsome:

by these codes and statutes.

Jerremy Newsome:

The Big 10, like those aren't written down.

Jerremy Newsome:

We codify them.

Jerremy Newsome:

So what we have are people trying to interpret these intangible laws that

Jerremy Newsome:

exist even if they're not written down.

Jerremy Newsome:

And are bad interpreters, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

For example, in some cultures they love their neighbors.

Jerremy Newsome:

In other cultures they eat them.

Jerremy Newsome:

Which would you prefer?

Jerremy Newsome:

So in other words, your preference isn't determinative of what is morally valid

Jerremy Newsome:

or what is right or what is equitable.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so what happens and there, and therefore the incentives of the players.

Jerremy Newsome:

Who are the players?

Jerremy Newsome:

I. The lawyers, the cops, the judges, the prosecutors.

Jerremy Newsome:

you change the incentives to where the incentives are, when you lose, you pay.

Jerremy Newsome:

It will change things.

Jerremy Newsome:

So here's how this would work.

Jerremy Newsome:

In Washington state, if a tree falls on your kid and kills your kid and you

Jerremy Newsome:

file a lawsuit, you get the value of one child because you lost one child.

Jerremy Newsome:

You don't lose two child, you lose three kids.

Jerremy Newsome:

But if that kid goes on your neighbor's property and cuts down a tree, you get

Jerremy Newsome:

the value of three trees, not one tree.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay?

Jerremy Newsome:

The reason why that is, is because who wrote that law?

Jerremy Newsome:

Auer, which is one of the largest logging outfits in the country, so they have a

Jerremy Newsome:

law written special for them that says, if you take one of our trees, we get

Jerremy Newsome:

three of them as a deterrence, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

You also get your attorney fees.

Jerremy Newsome:

As a deterrence.

Jerremy Newsome:

So now so that does change people's behavior about timber trespass.

Jerremy Newsome:

Okay, let's talk about crimes ready?

Jerremy Newsome:

If you are charged with rape and found not guilty, huh?

Jerremy Newsome:

Sorry.

Jerremy Newsome:

You're charged with robbery.

Jerremy Newsome:

Found not guilty, huh?

Jerremy Newsome:

Sorry.

Jerremy Newsome:

incest.

Jerremy Newsome:

Tax evasion.

Jerremy Newsome:

Every, every single crime that's out there.

Jerremy Newsome:

Ah, sorry.

Jerremy Newsome:

There's no incentive, there's no disincentive.

Jerremy Newsome:

Here's how you change that.

Jerremy Newsome:

There's one crime and why is this so special?

Jerremy Newsome:

You wonder, there's one crime under the sun that if you're found

Jerremy Newsome:

not guilty, you get paid, bro.

Jerremy Newsome:

What do you think that crime is?

Jerremy Newsome:

Now think about this in terms of the lobbyists.

Jerremy Newsome:

Think of the lobbying industries in, in America, if you're the one crime,

Jerremy Newsome:

the a very highly powerful lobbying group where they want their members.

Jerremy Newsome:

To use this particular item, they have an item that they are pressing

Jerremy Newsome:

and they wanna make sure that if you are charged with using their item,

Jerremy Newsome:

that you get paid your attorney fees,

Dave Conley:

Opinion.

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: guns.

Dave Conley:

Exactly right.

Dave Conley:

Here's how self-defense, if you use a firearm in self-defense the jury

Dave Conley:

deems it with self-defense, get paid.

Dave Conley:

You don't just get acquitted, you get paid, your costs, your expert fees,

Dave Conley:

and your attorney fees, you get paid.

Dave Conley:

So go back down the list, right?

Dave Conley:

All the crimes that are out there, crabby without a license, you don't

Dave Conley:

get paid falsely accused, DUI, you don't get paid falsely accused,

Dave Conley:

battery, strangulation, whatever it is.

Dave Conley:

If arson.

Dave Conley:

You don't get paid.

Dave Conley:

But if you use self-defense, you get paid.

Dave Conley:

And you know what that does to prosecutors?

Dave Conley:

It makes them say does this defense, they have a, do they have a self-defense claim?

Dave Conley:

I wanna have somebody else look at this.

Dave Conley:

I've had lots of cases like this guys where I've had assault

Dave Conley:

cases where I will be like, look, we're gonna assert self-defense.

Dave Conley:

we have the right, and here's our notice that we're gonna get our attorney fees.

Dave Conley:

What that does is it gets an immediate review from a se, a senior white-haired

Dave Conley:

lawyer who will look at this case and say we do not wanna lose a case

Dave Conley:

where our county's gonna pay 200, 300, $400,000 for an assault case.

Jerremy Newsome:

Wow.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: if you take that standard and apply

Jerremy Newsome:

it to every case, every charge.

Jerremy Newsome:

If you were to make, every time the state loses, they pay your attorney fees,

Jerremy Newsome:

What is the state gonna do now?

Jerremy Newsome:

They're gonna charge less crimes.

Jerremy Newsome:

You think you got a prison problem?

Jerremy Newsome:

Oh my God, this's so expensive.

Jerremy Newsome:

Instead of figuring out how do we get people out of jail?

Jerremy Newsome:

How about we start out with not letting them get into jail?

Jerremy Newsome:

And here's how you do that.

Jerremy Newsome:

Not by saying the crimes aren't there, but saying if you can't win those cases, then

Jerremy Newsome:

you sure as shit better not bring them.

Jerremy Newsome:

You sure better not bring it.

Jerremy Newsome:

Jeremy.

Jerremy Newsome:

You sign a contract with a lawnmowing company to come and they and

Jerremy Newsome:

they breach their contract and there's an attorney fees clause.

Jerremy Newsome:

If you win, you get your fees right?

Jerremy Newsome:

You bill their, comes to your house you've got your building contract, you

Jerremy Newsome:

win, you get your attorney fees, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

And so the incentive for both sides is, oh my gosh, I better make sure that I'm in

Jerremy Newsome:

the right, 'cause I don't pay their fees.

Jerremy Newsome:

There is no incentive with the government.

Jerremy Newsome:

It is opposite.

Jerremy Newsome:

And I've talked about this with a couple judges.

Jerremy Newsome:

Like I, we, I went to a judges convention and we're all

Jerremy Newsome:

judges and we're sitting there.

Jerremy Newsome:

I said, Hey, tell me you have, tell me you have a problem with this.

Jerremy Newsome:

And they were all nervous.

Jerremy Newsome:

It was like I was talking to a bunch of nerdy bean counters,

Jerremy Newsome:

didn't know what to do.

Jerremy Newsome:

I said listen.

Jerremy Newsome:

You have people, what is so special about assault?

Jerremy Newsome:

Like, why is that so special?

Jerremy Newsome:

If I was accused of rape, right?

Jerremy Newsome:

why don't I get my fees for winning there?

Jerremy Newsome:

And these judges were just like 'cause the government should

Jerremy Newsome:

really not be, it shouldn't be treated as a privatized entity.

Jerremy Newsome:

I said, what?

Jerremy Newsome:

So it's accountable for its actions.

Jerremy Newsome:

What do you mean?

Jerremy Newsome:

And I would keep asking these questions and there

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: no response

Jerremy Newsome:

Wow.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: say sometimes you have to have a case that you

Jerremy Newsome:

just prosecute because it's part of, it's good for public morale.

Jerremy Newsome:

So even if we don't think it's a good case, we just need to prosecute the

Jerremy Newsome:

case and say, okay, then you know what?

Jerremy Newsome:

Then you could tell the taxpayers we lost this case.

Jerremy Newsome:

But you know what, some cases are worth fighting even if we think

Jerremy Newsome:

we're not gonna necessarily win.

Jerremy Newsome:

And the citizens will be like, you're damn right.

Jerremy Newsome:

cases we're gonna fight because it's the morally right thing to do.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so instead you have prosecutors and judges and the whole system

Jerremy Newsome:

where there's no disincentive.

Jerremy Newsome:

So if you put a disincentive into the system by making every

Jerremy Newsome:

crime, if you're found not guilty, you get paid your fees, what?

Jerremy Newsome:

You're gonna see charges go down by 50%

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Wow.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah, that's a fantastically well thought out solution that also seems.

Jerremy Newsome:

Relatively easy and simple and pretty quick,

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: yes.

Jerremy Newsome:

and

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: It's a statutory, it's a, I'm in I

Jerremy Newsome:

Dave, you got a face?

Jerremy Newsome:

Am I wrong?

Dave Conley:

I doesn't Europe do this?

Dave Conley:

At least on civil side, don't they?

Dave Conley:

If you sue somebody and you're found nope.

Dave Conley:

That it's like you have to pay the other person.

Dave Conley:

I'm this sounds like super easy.

Dave Conley:

And I think other worlds that have rule of law do this right.

Dave Conley:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah, we, we have civil cases that are like that.

Dave Conley:

So for example in Washington, if you are actually in every state, if you,

Dave Conley:

the Consumer Protection Act, if somebody does something unfair or deceptive

Dave Conley:

in business or trade or commerce, the person who shows that claim has

Dave Conley:

a right for their attorney fees.

Dave Conley:

It's an attorney fee award.

Dave Conley:

If you're a contractor and you are in Washington R CW 60.04, you can

Dave Conley:

file a contractor's lien and you can get paid your attorney fees.

Dave Conley:

But why is that not true with the crimes?

Dave Conley:

Like what the hell is the problem?

Dave Conley:

Like we have an incentive to think smart in every area, but crime

Dave Conley:

where it's with people's liberties.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah, it's.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: nuts is this?

Jerremy Newsome:

How nuts is this world we're living in where it makes sense that we

Jerremy Newsome:

have to disincentivize people from bringing false claims in

Jerremy Newsome:

every area except where they throw

Jerremy Newsome:

Wow.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: jail?

Jerremy Newsome:

Oh my God,

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Wow.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex, man, this is, this has been remarkable and incredible and I

Jerremy Newsome:

cannot wait to have you back on in a future episode for something

Jerremy Newsome:

else, just 'cause you're awesome.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Just 'cause you're amazing.

Jerremy Newsome:

I'm gonna hit you with some lightning round questions that are

Jerremy Newsome:

a little just fun and just exciting.

Jerremy Newsome:

So no law degree.

Jerremy Newsome:

What are you doing instead?

Jerremy Newsome:

'cause you have 412 things I've counted that you're really good at.

Jerremy Newsome:

What else?

Jerremy Newsome:

What else you doing?

Jerremy Newsome:

No degree.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: If I didn't have a law degree at all.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Oh, wow.

Jerremy Newsome:

I just, I would be an entrepreneur.

Jerremy Newsome:

I would be, I mean at one point I was doing internet internet marketing.

Jerremy Newsome:

I enjoyed that.

Jerremy Newsome:

I would just be a marketer.

Jerremy Newsome:

I think I'd be a sales guy where I'm not selling products, but I'm

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: to people.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: upgrade, personal improvement.

Jerremy Newsome:

I think that's what I'd be doing.

Jerremy Newsome:

Love it.

Jerremy Newsome:

Awesome.

Jerremy Newsome:

I've heard lawyers love my cousin Vinny, for its legal accuracy.

Jerremy Newsome:

Do you have a favorite legal film?

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: I like the, first of all, I like the hot girl in the show, so

Jerremy Newsome:

that, that kind of moves the whole thing.

Jerremy Newsome:

That show,

Jerremy Newsome:

I.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

The series suits was, it was like watching my Nightmare Life roll before me.

Jerremy Newsome:

Like that movie, that whole series is so stressful because what it was like when

Jerremy Newsome:

I was at a downtown Seattle law firm.

Jerremy Newsome:

It was just like that.

Jerremy Newsome:

And it's funny, for six and a half years, I. I walked around that office every

Jerremy Newsome:

single month with a letter of resignation in my left breast pocket, in my suit coat.

Jerremy Newsome:

I printed out every single month a

Jerremy Newsome:

Wow.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: of resignation because I hated it so much.

Jerremy Newsome:

I hated the smell and the way they talked and the way that they walked and the

Jerremy Newsome:

books and the creek of the floors and the way that the elevators would ding.

Jerremy Newsome:

And there's the marble everywhere, and the tall glass building and

Jerremy Newsome:

the big ships out in the water.

Jerremy Newsome:

All of that was just like this disgusting machine that just was

Jerremy Newsome:

grinding people and bones and teeth.

Jerremy Newsome:

And gnashing is like this giant, this e this legally evolutionary

Jerremy Newsome:

biological system that is working to recreate like wealth into

Jerremy Newsome:

something that it shouldn't be.

Jerremy Newsome:

Is I, that's what it was like to me.

Jerremy Newsome:

So when I walked around and finally I actually went, had my first kid, I

Jerremy Newsome:

stopped signing the letter 'cause I didn't want somebody to lose a letter.

Jerremy Newsome:

I just had a printed letter, but I kept that in my pocket.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so for me it would be suits because that is.

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah, they've got a lot of drama, but it's big law firms are just like that.

Jerremy Newsome:

Love it.

Jerremy Newsome:

Very cool.

Jerremy Newsome:

All right, man.

Jerremy Newsome:

So what's one practical way everyday people, voters, neighbors, advocates,

Jerremy Newsome:

can push for a fair justice system.

Jerremy Newsome:

Let's call it either through voting or maybe grassroots

Jerremy Newsome:

action for the last question.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: I think what they should do they should call their state

Jerremy Newsome:

representatives state by state in their county they're in and say, Hey, I heard

Jerremy Newsome:

on this podcast about there's assaults you can get like your attorney fees.

Jerremy Newsome:

If you're falsely accused, why don't we do that for everything

Jerremy Newsome:

That seems like a good idea,

Jerremy Newsome:

It will get them a con, make them a conversation about, oh my God, we're

Jerremy Newsome:

gonna be paying all of these budgets.

Jerremy Newsome:

Budgets for what?

Jerremy Newsome:

Think about this for a second.

Jerremy Newsome:

They're saying, oh my God, we have to pay an extra $5 million.

Jerremy Newsome:

charging people with crimes they didn't commit.

Jerremy Newsome:

Let's think about that.

Jerremy Newsome:

Think about that.

Jerremy Newsome:

They're gonna tell you God, that would just would tank our budgets.

Jerremy Newsome:

Why?

Jerremy Newsome:

Why is that?

Jerremy Newsome:

Because see, we're charging innocent people and we don't wanna pay for that.

Jerremy Newsome:

So have them go and have them have that conversation each state should

Jerremy Newsome:

amend its criminal code that says if you are charged with the crime and

Jerremy Newsome:

you are found not guilty by a jury, get paid your attorney fees and costs.

Jerremy Newsome:

If you do that, you're gonna see the jail doors flung wide open.

Jerremy Newsome:

private prisons probably go outta business because there

Jerremy Newsome:

just won't be the constituency.

Jerremy Newsome:

They just won't be there

Jerremy Newsome:

The prosecutors will be like, oh my God, we lost a million dollar case.

Jerremy Newsome:

And like they don't think in terms of money, they turn, think in terms of.

Jerremy Newsome:

Statutes, codes, regulations,

Jerremy Newsome:

Yeah,

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: else, wherever you go, whatever you do, you think just 'cause

Jerremy Newsome:

I can build a bridge to the moon doesn't mean I should build a bridge to the moon.

Jerremy Newsome:

sure.

Jerremy Newsome:

And to your point for anyone who reaches out and talks to the state

Jerremy Newsome:

representative, use some of that.

Jerremy Newsome:

Data that I mentioned earlier.

Jerremy Newsome:

There's somewhere between 60 and 80 billion a year that we spend on jailing

Jerremy Newsome:

people like, use some of that money,

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

states like you're already spending it to your point,

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Yes.

Jerremy Newsome:

private business, private prisons will start going outta business.

Jerremy Newsome:

Man that's a really hot take.

Jerremy Newsome:

I love that you shared it.

Jerremy Newsome:

It's really very valuable for us.

Jerremy Newsome:

Very valuable for our listeners.

Jerremy Newsome:

And I just wanna say, Alex, thank you for your time.

Jerremy Newsome:

Thank you, most importantly, for your energy, for your knowledge,

Jerremy Newsome:

for your enthusiasm, and for helping us solve America's problems.

Jerremy Newsome:

Alex Thomason Valor: Thank you for having me guys.

Dave Conley:

What did you learn on this one?

Jerremy Newsome:

I loved his veracity and his intelligent banter and wit.

Jerremy Newsome:

But most importantly, yeah, this seems like another giant

Jerremy Newsome:

system built on money, Dave.

Jerremy Newsome:

A lot of people are making it and they don't want to be accountable

Jerremy Newsome:

for what they are making, sending people to jail innocently like I have.

Jerremy Newsome:

I either heard that or felt that, or thought that through at least 30%

Jerremy Newsome:

of that conversation from a judge.

Jerremy Newsome:

And prosecutor,

Dave Conley:

Yeah.

Jerremy Newsome:

He's not hiding behind the fact that this happens.

Jerremy Newsome:

That's a really fascinating, and I think maybe something that I, I didn't think,

Jerremy Newsome:

because we heard that Dave, we heard this from all of the tranches of this system.

Jerremy Newsome:

We went to people who were in prison who got out, we're like, man, that sucked.

Jerremy Newsome:

And I think a lot of people in there were in there innocently.

Jerremy Newsome:

And then we get to the prosecutor's yep.

Jerremy Newsome:

A lot of people in there innocently and there's no repercussions.

Jerremy Newsome:

And when you brought that up, I never thought about that question.

Jerremy Newsome:

And so thank you.

Jerremy Newsome:

And I'm sure many of our listeners are blown away by the simple fact that there

Jerremy Newsome:

is no repercussions anywhere for anyone.

Jerremy Newsome:

The detective, the policeman, the prosecutor, the D, no one

Dave Conley:

What, so when in your life

Jerremy Newsome:

never.

Dave Conley:

anything?

Dave Conley:

Anything, any job?

Dave Conley:

Like literally anything.

Dave Conley:

if you screwed it up,

Jerremy Newsome:

We're

Dave Conley:

was absolutely no consequences is

Jerremy Newsome:

done numerous times.

Jerremy Newsome:

Like it's not even oh, we convicted one guy.

Jerremy Newsome:

Sorry.

Jerremy Newsome:

My bad, like we see about this often and it's people in prison that have

Jerremy Newsome:

been in there for 20 years and it's not like we didn't have DNA testing

Jerremy Newsome:

20 years ago like we did like this.

Jerremy Newsome:

It is 20, 25, 20 years ago, it's 2005.

Jerremy Newsome:

Like we had plenty of, this is happening often and I really, I did learn that

Jerremy Newsome:

there's a very fast solution to this particular problem, believe it or not.

Jerremy Newsome:

And you and I were almost so dumbfounded because it was so elegant and fast

Jerremy Newsome:

and quick and feels like, seems like potentially could be extremely efficient.

Jerremy Newsome:

Man, I can't wait to get on stage and talk about this one.

Dave Conley:

This.

Dave Conley:

Absolutely.

Dave Conley:

We've done, I don't know, 50 of these so far.

Dave Conley:

This is the first one where I've heard, oh no, there's actually

Dave Conley:

a really simple solution.

Dave Conley:

And I'm like, oh my God.

Dave Conley:

There really is they're really legit is, and it's not in the sky.

Dave Conley:

It's not crazy talk as soon as you start saying okay, if the state loses

Dave Conley:

the state has to pay, then the state is going to be bringing like the real

Dave Conley:

charges to the real people that we all want actually behind bars, right?

Dave Conley:

The monsters behind bars.

Dave Conley:

I.

Dave Conley:

For everyone else, we're gonna be like diverting them into places where they

Dave Conley:

need to be, like addiction specialists or treatment programs or whatever.

Dave Conley:

Like those are the vast majority of cases that are either nonviolent or like they

Dave Conley:

didn't have a lot of evidence or they were innocent or all of those things.

Dave Conley:

I'm like, those people will be diverted out into places where

Dave Conley:

actually might solve problems.

Dave Conley:

And so that's what I heard today.

Dave Conley:

I heard a simple solution.

Dave Conley:

It could happen tomorrow.

Dave Conley:

It's a, it's just a little bit of code at your state level

Dave Conley:

and it would change everything.

Jerremy Newsome:

That is solving America's problems.

Jerremy Newsome:

Make sure you subscribe.

Jerremy Newsome:

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Jerremy Newsome:

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About the Podcast

Solving America's Problems
Solving America’s Problems isn’t just a podcast—it’s a journey. Co-host Jerremy Newsome, a successful entrepreneur and educator, is pursuing his lifelong dream of running for president. Along the way, he and co-host Dave Conley bring together experts, advocates, and everyday Americans to explore the real, actionable solutions our country needs.

With dynamic formats—one-on-one interviews, panel discussions, and more—we cut through the noise of divisive rhetoric to uncover practical ideas that unite instead of divide. If you’re ready to think differently, act boldly, and join a movement for meaningful change, subscribe now.